Discussion on languages and etymologies

[Soldier of Macedon]

Were it not for the katharevousa project it wouldn't be used at all.

[Voltron]

Were it not for the katharevousa project it wouldn't be used at all.

Speculation at this point. Kathervousa always gets a bad rep. but I happen to think it was a good initiative. And although it had good intentions it was never accepted.

[Po-drum]

Speculation at this point. Kathervousa always gets a bad rep. but I happen to think it was a good initiative. And although it had good intentions it was never accepted.

Voltron in what extent is widespread the term "idor" about water at Greeks??
It's sounding very close to macedonian "voda", and while I'm reading "Cratilo" by Platon I can see that he claims this word is not of hellenic origin, but rather barbaric.

[Voltron]

Voltron in what extent is widespread the term "idor" about water at Greeks??
It's sounding very close to macedonian "voda", and while I'm reading "Cratilo" by Platon I can see that he claims this word is not of hellenic origin, but rather barbaric.

I dont hear it used as Idor anymore Po-drum. "Hydro" ok that is more common. Ιδρώτας for example. That term must be very old and may have changed, the r and o being switched. Im not a linguist by any means and never had the opportunity to take Ancient Greek classes like most here do. Voda kind of sounds like water to me.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Speculation at this point.

See the below excerpt from Brailsford:

I once had to send a telegram in which I made use of the words kainourio spiti (new house). No sane Greek in speaking would ever use any other combination of words to indicate the same idea. But the clerk remonstrated. I must mean nea oikia. And when I protested that I wished to telegraph, not in ancient but in modern Greek, he retorted that when he was at school he would have been thrashed at a first offence for writing spiti and expelled for the second. And yet, despite its foreign origin, neither he nor any other living man in Greece ever dreamed of using in daily speech any word save spiti (hospitium). It is the name that the child uses for his home before he has been taught that the ancients had another. No peasant, and few women, would even know what oikia means. The one word has all the associations of the mother tongue; the other, for all that it is Hellenic, is foreign and unfamiliar, as colourless as an algebraic symbol. For literature the prohibition of the first word is disastrous. It means that it has at its disposal no word which stirs an emotional echo. It is as though we were to erase "home" from all our poetry and substitute "residence."

No speculation, it's the truth.

Voltron in what extent is widespread the term "idor" about water at Greeks??
It's sounding very close to macedonian "voda", and while I'm reading "Cratilo" by Platon I can see that he claims this word is not of hellenic origin, but rather barbaric.

Can you cite the quote and chapter number for that, Po-drum? Would be interested to see it. The ancient Greeks did use such a word for water, but modern Greeks use 'nero', so do the Cypriots. Apparently Etruscans use 'neri' and Sanskrit uses 'nira', but have to confirm that. I have also noticed that the capital of Kenya which is known as Nairobi is also related to water. Not sure if it is connected in any way. Greeks claim that their word comes from 'nearon' which is supposed to mean 'fresh'. Who knows. But worthy of taking a deeper look.

[Voltron]

See the below excerpt from Brailsford:

No speculation, it's the truth.

I saw the excerpt but I think he is over exaggerating. I hear oikia being used and its not that extremely rare. If it was learnt in school or not is also not a big deal. Why the heck did I have to take English 101 at school then ? Ok, some teachers wanted to cleanse the language and try to restore some orginal Greek words. Even if thats the case, I dont see why that is such a bad thing ? Oikia is also used as a prefix for many words like Oikopedo " land lot " is there a Spitopedo ? No there isnt so its not like the word is completely lost and resurrected from the dead.

Can you cite the quote and chapter number for that, Po-drum? Would be interested to see it. The ancient Greeks did use such a word for water, but modern Greeks use 'nero', so do the Cypriots. Apparently Etruscans use 'neri' and Sanskrit uses 'nira', but have to confirm that. I have also noticed that the capital of Kenya which is known as Nairobi is also related to water. Not sure if it is connected in any way. Greeks claim that their word comes from 'nearon' which is supposed to mean 'fresh'. Who knows. But worthy of taking a deeper look.

Yes, we do use Nero for water. Interesting thread btw.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You may hear oikia being used now, but that certainly wasn't the case in the early 20th century. I think you are understating how much words were cleansed from the spoken language. When was the word 'oikopedo' first used? Before katharevousa? I doubt it, but if you can show otherwise feel free.

[Po-drum]

Can you cite the quote and chapter number for that, Po-drum? Would be interested to see it. The ancient Greeks did use such a word for water, but modern Greeks use 'nero', so do the Cypriots. Apparently Etruscans use 'neri' and Sanskrit uses 'nira', but have to confirm that. I have also noticed that the capital of Kenya which is known as Nairobi is also related to water. Not sure if it is connected in any way. Greeks claim that their word comes from 'nearon' which is supposed to mean 'fresh'. Who knows. But worthy of taking a deeper look.

I have this book in macedonian (translated from ancient greek) but I will try to translate in english this part of book (it's written in form of philosophic discussion in which Socrat is explaining how the form and the meaning of words are connected or they are not - something like this thread).

They come to word "πυρ", and Socrat is saying:
"Look what I think about this. In fact, I know that the Hellenes, especially those who live under the rule of the barbarians,have taken many words from the barbarians."

Hermogen(us):
"What?"

Socrat:
"If somebody make research how appropriate would those words suit in greek language, instead of researching from which words their name comes, he would be confused."

Hermogen(us):
"Most probably."

Socrat:
"Look out if this name "πυρ" (fire) is not also barbaric one. Because it's not easy to be adjusted according to greek language, and it's well known that Phrygians are also using it with slight difference. The same goes for "ύδωρ" (water) and "κύνας' (female dogs)."

So, Socrat is connecting those words with our well known from earlier times - Brygians. He is against speculative way of explanations of loanwords from neighbouring barbaric peoples.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks Po-drum. What is the title of the original book? There may be an english translation online.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Nevermind, I think you're talking about Cratylus from Plato, just read one of your previous posts again. Here is a link to the text:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/cratylus.html

[Po-drum]

Nevermind, I think you're talking about Cratylus from Plato, just read one of your previous posts again. Here is a link to the text:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/cratylus.html

Yup, although it's not entire book.
So, this is that part directly translated in English:

Her. What do you say of pur (fire) and udor (water)?

Soc. I am at a loss how to explain pur; either the muse of Euthyphro has deserted me, or there is some very great difficulty in the word. Please, however, to note the contrivance which I adopt whenever I am in a difficulty of this sort.

Her. What is it?

Soc. I will tell you; but I should like to know first whether you can tell me what is the meaning of the pur?

Her. Indeed I cannot.

Soc. Shall I tell you what I suspect to be the true explanation of this and several other words?- My belief is that they are of foreign origin. For the Hellenes, especially those who were under the dominion of the barbarians, often borrowed from them.

Her. What is the inference?

Soc. Why, you know that any one who seeks to demonstrate the fitness of these names according to the Hellenic language, and not according to the language from which the words are derived, is rather likely to be at fault.

Her. Yes, certainly.

Soc. Well then, consider whether this pur is not foreign; for the word is not easily brought into relation with the Hellenic tongue, and the Phrygians may be observed to have the same word slightly changed, just as they have udor (water) and kunes (dogs), and many other words.

Her. That is true.

[Makedonce1]

Are there any Macedonian words based off of Ancient Macedonian?

I'm curious to know if any Macedonian words today were used back in Aleksandar Makedonski's time.

[Onur]

I recently came across a word which is supposedly from proto-Bulgarian or unknown/proto-Slavic. It`s a fundamental word which cannot possibly be adopted from another language in later stage.

iskam, iskat = wish, seek, desire, demand, request, want, ask, claim...

I found this word in Bulgarian, Serb-Croat, Russian and Slovenian by using google translate;

Bulgarian "iskam"

http://translate.google.com/#bg|en|%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BC

Slovenian "íščem"

http://translate.google.com/#sl|en|%C3%AD%C5%A1%C4%8Dem

Russian "iskat"

http://translate.google.com/#ru|en|%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C

Serb-Croat "istem"

http://translate.google.com/#hr|en|istem

This is in fact an old Turkic word still exists in today`s Turkish without any change in semantics but maybe a slight letter change in post-republic Turkish orthography of tense/mood forms;

Turkish "istem, istek, istek-li, iste-mek, istet-mek"

http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istem

http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istek

http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istekli

http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istemek

http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istetmek

All these forms of this word also exists in Turkish-Arabic dictionary written in 1070 AD;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_al-Kashgari

https://sites.google.com/site/kokturkuzbiz/dlt

I couldn't find by using google translate but i think that this word should also exist in Hungarian or even Finnish, Estonian as archaic or some other form.

Let me know if this word exists in Macedonian in one way or another. Btw, the standard word for this verb seems like "zeleti" for most slavic languages, is that the case?

[Risto the Great]

Hi Onur,
Macedonians say "sakam" which means "want".
I suspect "zeleti" means "wish" as it is close to the Macedonian word "zhelba" for wish.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Both 'sakam' and 'iskam' come from the same root. I have also seen others claim it to be an Iranic or Slavic word. The Turkic example appears to be close but I haven't really looked into it.