The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

[sf.]

"Don't knock masturbation — it's sex with someone I love"

Woody Allen.


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(I am pretty sure that you are completely unable to understand the really simple metaphorical meaning of my post)

I think you are trying to say that you typed this with only one hand.

[Vangelovski]

Don't do that, I'm not interested. Ako sakash da se inaetish, odi igrai si so Viktor. I have made my argument and if you can't (won't) comprehend or accept it, that's your problem.

You haven't made any argument other than insinuating that people may confuse the political party with the state. I have not seen any example of this type of mass confusion anywhere. Perhaps you can provide one?

If you're not interested in playing games, then why start one with a vacuous generalisation that has no place in rational debate?

[Soldier of Macedon]

In light of what Bratot wrote, it seems that it was a deliberate ploy by the higher ups in the commy party. We will never know the exact issue they had with Karev beyond the obvious threat to their liegitimacy. It was easy to portray them as Bulgarophils - in a communist totalitarian regime, something minor as an initial inclination towards the Bulgarians can be misconstrued/misrepresented as treachery. If there's is no link at all, it could be manufactured. The Karevs advocating for an independent Macedonia would have been a huge threat to the CPJ.

So, in light of the testimony from a co-prisoner of Karev's brother in addition to the above, do you still stand by your initial statement, whereby you claimed to have understood the reasons why the decision was made, in that 'context'? I don't.

How does Keith Brown present the Macedonians?

[sf.]

It doesn't change at all. The communist authorities had an issue with the Karev name and dealt with it. Don't mistake this for condonation.

If you're interested, have a look at the subject of historical empathy, particularly the seminal work of Ashby and Lee.

Regards to Keith Brown, his work had a particular focus, amongst which is the discrepancy between local history and official narrative. It is worth noting that he does not make any accusations, but has reported on different perspectives.

[TrueMacedonian]

Regards to Keith Brown, his work had a particular focus, amongst which is the discrepancy between local history and official narrative. It is worth noting that he does not make any accusations, but has reported on different perspectives.

It's a book that I recommend everyone read. Brown researched through handwritten accounts of the Macedonians who were involved in Krushevo and etc.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It doesn't change at all. The communist authorities had an issue with the Karev name and dealt with it. Don't mistake this for condonation.

If you're interested, have a look at the subject of historical empathy, particularly the seminal work of Ashby and Lee.

Regards to Keith Brown, his work had a particular focus, amongst which is the discrepancy between local history and official narrative. It is worth noting that he does not make any accusations, but has reported on different perspectives.

Your initial statement seemed to suggest that it was ok for these idiots to exclude Karev's name because the latter's descendants and family were apparent 'bulgarophiles'. The context you seemed to find understandable has been proven to be nothing more than a false accusation, and there is nothing understandable about the actions of those treacherous animals.

[Bratot]

I much prefer the old one. Far more rousing.

Me too, the same feeling.

[Bratot]

In light of what Bratot wrote, it seems that it was a deliberate ploy by the higher ups in the commy party. We will never know the exact issue they had with Karev beyond the obvious threat to their liegitimacy. It was easy to portray them as Bulgarophils - in a communist totalitarian regime, something minor as an initial inclination towards the Bulgarians can be misconstrued/misrepresented as treachery. If there's is no link at all, it could be manufactured. The Karevs advocating for an independent Macedonia would have been a huge threat to the CPJ.

SF.


It is true that some of Macedonians prefered to join in federation with Bulgaria, but also those who advocated a federation with Yugoslavia (read Serbia) weren't any less traitors.
It is because some of them were members of either the Serbian or Bulgarian communist party, since the CPM didn't existed before it's founding in 1943.
The rest were of the purest patriotic type such as Chento.


Tito, in a letter dated January 16, 1943 to PC CPY for Macedonia forwarded by Svetozar Vukmanovic Tempo, addresses the Macedonian communists with the next:
" it's required mobilization of all forces of our party organization, the immaturity and the liberal attitude toward the "autonomist tendencies" with national character need to be completely eliminated. We didn't striked forcefully enough on those "autonomist" tendencies, which greatly affected our party organization in Macedonia!"

The Communist party have focused all of their powers to fight the Macedonian autonomist tendencies.


And with all respect to your opinion but I agree with Vangelovski about the national symbols used by the political parties.

It is a normal practice to use the national symbols by the political subjects participating in the political life of any country.

[sf.]

Again, nowhere in my posts did I defend the commies or accuse the Karevs.

As for the coat of arms issue, I'll stand by my convictions.

[Pelister]

FYI: The members of first democratically elected (despite all the obstacles) Macedonian Parliament, elected in 1990 multi-party elections, were tasked with many national duties and one of those was choosing a new state flag, coat of arms and national hymn. That is how it was chosen (by a majority vote of elected MPs). They had a parliamentary committee tasked for this role and they then asked for design submissions and after much wheeling and dealing, they voted for the modified ("Sonchogled") 16-ray Macedonian Sun design.


The following interview (in Macedonian) with Todor Petrov sheds some light on the issue:

Imagine if they do this to change the name? It was clear that the New Greeks stole the symbol from us. If they can change the flag then they can change it back.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have never been too fond of the term 'kutlesh' for the sun. It has a Turkish origin and was the name of the town until the Greeks created a new one for the area in 1922, now known as Vergina. This isn't the only place where items with the symbol have been uncovered, if that was the case we may as well call it the Ohrid sun, or Bitola sun, etc. It's down to personal choice I suppose. In my opinion, we should call and write it as the Macedonian sun. In my family, we have never used 'kutleshko sonce', it is always 'Makedonskoto sonce' and now unfortunately in some cases 'staroto sonce'.

[blackcactus]

Same SOM, I use Macedonian Sun as well, it has a nice ring to it, and sums up it's ownership nicely, it doesn't belong to a place it belongs to a people

[George S.]

THe macedonian sun belongs to the macedonian people.Greek propaganda will have you beleive that the find in vergina is a greek symbol a star,a star of vergina.But what significance does this have for the macedonian people this is the macedonian sun symbol.The different rays i'm told remind us of all the macedonian tribes.THe macedonian sun shone on it's people & gave it strength & life.People shouldn't forget that our symbol that's the macedonian sun is very special to it's own people that's the macedonians.What did the greeks do they stole our lands & they stole our symbol.Ever since then they tried to lie by saying it's a greek symbol.It's not a greek symbol.It's a macedonian symbol only for the Macedonians.THe MacedonianSUN !.

[Risto the Great]

'Makedonskoto sonce'

My preferred title.

[George S.]

i read in one of the macedonian weeklies years ago that in 1945 on rom territory was found
a golden larnax box similar to the one found in vergina and taken to germany.the whereabouts no one knows.
All over rom teritory is the macedonian sun ,in churches on churches,on buildings or anything macedonian.The macedonian sonce is allover rom territory.To say that the macedonian sun exists only in kutlesh or vergina is a complete understatement .It exists everywhere in rom.i think it should be called the macedonian sun.The sun has never been a greek symbol the only reason they are claiming it is because they are occupying macedonian territory & think they have exclusive right to usage.