The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

[Soldier of Macedon]

From Keith Brown, The Past in Question: Modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation (2003): The story about how the Karev descendants in Krushevo were staunch Bulgarian supporters during WW2.

Which story? Does Keith Brown go into any further detail?

My family is well familiar with the Karevci in Krushevo, they are anything but sellouts. I have heard of accusations made by komunjari against Nikola's brother as an apparent 'bugarash', but I have not seen any confirmation of it. Several prominent Macedonians were sent to Idrizovo as apparent 'bugarashi' when all they sought was a united Macedonia.

[sf.]

I can't remember the exact details, since it's been about 3-4 years since I've read the book. But, the accusations did seem to be aimed against Nikola's son. I think Brown relied on local testimonies, but I can't recall whether he corroborated this with state documents. Again, we're not talking about our own attitudes but possible reasons why the name might have been deliberately omitted.

[freifrau]

Freifrau wrote:
I don't think that an ethnic symbol can be monopolized by a party.
Maybe the party should modify it a bit (adding some letters,or changing the shape..)

I believe tha strongest opposition would be from the Albanian minority who feels that is not represented by the Lion symbol.


Julie wrote:
Once again, you seem extremely pro -Albanian, and it has nothing to do with me being a nice and quiet Macedonian girl. I am a proud Macedonian. period.

…i also find freifrau stupid and insulting


-----------

Do you have reading or understanding problems?
Maybe you should think to finish school.

[freifrau]

julie, the clown questioned the purpose of this site and proceeded to demean us. The purpose of the MTO is clear. We are not here to indulge outsiders and be patronised by them. We are here to empower ourselves, as a first step in the long struggle faced by our people ahead. If others don't like this, then to quote you: "neka puknat."

Cheers

"Don't knock masturbation — it's sex with someone I love"

Woody Allen.


----
(I am pretty sure that you are completely unable to understand the really simple metaphorical meaning of my post)

[BigMak]

Freifrau wrote:
I don't think that an ethnic symbol can be monopolized by a party.
Maybe the party should modify it a bit (adding some letters,or changing the shape..)

I believe tha strongest opposition would be from the Albanian minority who feels that is not represented by the Lion symbol.


Julie wrote:
Once again, you seem extremely pro -Albanian, and it has nothing to do with me being a nice and quiet Macedonian girl. I am a proud Macedonian. period.

…i also find freifrau stupid and insulting


-----------

Do you have reading or understanding problems?
Maybe you should think to finish school.

Personally I could not care less what a foreigner (albanians) think. It maybe a goo idea to get the Albanians into a state funded project to train them into respecting the Country they choose to call home.

One good way (Zatvor) and hard labor for a minimum of 10 years would be good. And if that doesn't work, a bulldozer and a mass grave could be a brilliant inexpensive option

[julie]

FF, unlike your neo fascist superiority complexity issues, I do not need to state my tertiary qualifications here, unfortunately, your tertiary qualifications count for toilet paper for the verbal diarhea that eschews from your rascist and insulting mouth

[julie]

narcissism is another one of those Greek traits, must be so difficult for you denouncing your HellAssic origin, and continue to insult members of this forum, will not stand you in good steed.
Oh, perhaps you are one of those leftover from your dictator's regime, you are a joke amongst us here

[julie]

BigMak, I believe it was gas chambers they were advocates for, with their disgusting acts of mass genocide in exterminating millions of innocent souls, of course, they would not want to recognise Macedonians as a minority group in Greece, they are the anti-christ.

[Vangelovski]

Political parties tend incorporate the existing symbolism into their logos/party symbols. In the case of the Liberal party, the flag is incorporated in a stylised 'L' with the word 'LIBERAL' under it. The flag takes up less than a quarter of the whole logo. In the case of the major American parties, there are popular representations for each party, but their official logos are quite different from the state symbols.

The Lion in the VMRO logo is dominant, and presented as a variation of the traditional coat of arms. As a state coat of arms, there will be very minor differences between the two. In such a situation, there is a danger that the party could become synonymous with the state and its institutions, and could be seen as being given an unfair political advantage. This needs to be avoided in a healthy democratic system.
And if you want to find examples, look nowhere else but to the communist countries where the party and the state are indistinguishable.

sf,

Regardless of how "dominant" a national symbol is in a party's logo, national symbols ARE used in party logo's worldwide. I'm still waiting to hear one sound reason why the two entities cannot use the same symbols, when they clearly do in most countries, including western liberal democracies.

If you're concerned about confusing the party with the state itself, I would suggest that you refrain from voting and take up the cause for voluntary voting in Australia. You would be a perfect argument as to why compulsory voting is not necessarily a good thing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I can't remember the exact details, since it's been about 3-4 years since I've read the book. But, the accusations did seem to be aimed against Nikola's son. I think Brown relied on local testimonies, but I can't recall whether he corroborated this with state documents. Again, we're not talking about our own attitudes but possible reasons why the name might have been deliberately omitted.

It may have been his son or nephew instead of his brother, not sure, I too haven't read about the topic in a while. But I would still argue that the reason he was not included was because of people like Kolishevski and other traitors of the communist ilk. I will see if I can dig something more up, but that is the impression I remember having.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It may have been his son or nephew instead of his brother, not sure, I too haven't read about the topic in a while. But I would still argue that the reason he was not included was because of people like Kolishevski and other traitors of the communist ilk. I will see if I can dig something more up, but that is the impression I remember having.

It was his brother, I was right the first time. Check the below:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=72251#post72251

One wonders where mr Brown got his sources from, because the above link is a direct testimony of someone that lay in prison with Karev's brother.

[Bratot]

The anthem meet several changes in the text, in the first version Karev was in it, later he was removed.

The reason is next:

Во однос на првичниот текст од 1941 година се изоставени имињата на Никола Карев и Димитар Влахов, а е додадено името на Даме Груев!

Не се сеќавам точно, но мислам дека некаде до крајот на педесетите години од минатиот век во македонската химна беше и Никола Карев. Во неа беа Гоце, Даме, Сандански и тој. Подоцна ја слушав химната и се прашував зошто и по чија наредба е избришано неговото име. Сакав да дознаам што се случило во тие седум-осум години по ослободувањето, за чичко ми Никола Карев да биде избришан дури и од химната. Еден ден отидов кај Димче Аџимитрески, кој беше декан на Вишата економска школа и беше близок со власта.
Кога му кажав дека сум внук од брат на Никола, ме покани да седнам, ме понуди со кафе и ми кажа како тргнала работата околу бришењето на Карев од химната: ’Во 1953 година, на педесетгодишнината од илинденското востание, Лазо Колишевски не собра во владата мене, Злате Билјановски, Страхил Гигов и уште неколкумина. Се отвори дискусија околу значењето на Илинден, и тогаш некој од присутните, ми се чини Страхил Гигов, предложи Гоце Делчев, Даме Груев, Никола Карев и другите да ги прогласиме за Бугари. Тоа го образложи со загриженоста дека ако наводно се продолжи со практиката тие да бидат споменувани како досега и за нив да се пеат толку многу песни, ќе станат поголеми и од нас’, ми рече тогаш Аџимитрески.






The original version:

Денес над Македонија се раѓа
ново сонце на слободата
старо младо машко и женско
на нозе се кренало.

Горите Македонски шумно пејат
нови песни, нови весници
Македонците се борат
за својте правдини.

Одново сега знамето се вее
над Крушовската република
На Гоце Делчев, Питу Гули
Карев, Влахов, Сандански.

Не плачи Македонијо мајко мила
крени глава гордо високо
Македонија слободна
слободна ќе живее.

The current:

Денес над Македонија се раѓа
ново сонце на слободата
Македонците се борат
за својте правдини

Одново сега знамето се вее
над Крушевската република
на Гоце Делчев, Питу Гули
Даме Груев Сандански

Горите Македонски шумно пејат
нови песни, нови весници
Македонија слободна
слободно живее

these parts were removed:
1. „Старо младо машко и женско на нозе се кренало“
3. „Карев & Влахов"
2. „Не плачи Македонијо Мајко мила...Македонија слободна ..крени глава гордо високо“

[Risto the Great]

I much prefer the old one. Far more rousing.

[sf.]

In light of what Bratot wrote, it seems that it was a deliberate ploy by the higher ups in the commy party. We will never know the exact issue they had with Karev beyond the obvious threat to their liegitimacy. It was easy to portray them as Bulgarophils - in a communist totalitarian regime, something minor as an initial inclination towards the Bulgarians can be misconstrued/misrepresented as treachery. If there's is no link at all, it could be manufactured. The Karevs advocating for an independent Macedonia would have been a huge threat to the CPJ.

[sf.]

sf,

Regardless of how "dominant" a national symbol is in a party's logo, national symbols ARE used in party logo's worldwide. I'm still waiting to hear one sound reason why the two entities cannot use the same symbols, when they clearly do in most countries, including western liberal democracies.

If you're concerned about confusing the party with the state itself, I would suggest that you refrain from voting and take up the cause for voluntary voting in Australia. You would be a perfect argument as to why compulsory voting is not necessarily a good thing.

Don't do that, I'm not interested. Ako sakash da se inaetish, odi igrai si so Viktor. I have made my argument and if you can't (won't) comprehend or accept it, that's your problem.