Archaeology of the Ancient World

[afterhours]

When the greeks or whoever supplies these so called fine museums with artifacts the supplier is only too happy to give it's own stamp of approval.Eg this vase from egypt isn't exqusite it's actually a Greek bust of Alexander.We know how the Greeks MANIPULATE things for their advantage!Say no more i got you worked out its all lies &false crap.

It's a conspiracy bro! We actually rule the world, but don't tell anybody!

[afterhours]

I only asked you to define it.
Was it different in antiquity vs more recent history? If it was, I will take both definitions from you please.

What does ethnocide have to do with this thread entitled "Archaeology of the Ancient World"?

You want me to give you a definition of something so badly that you've lost the plot Risto!

If you really want me to give a definition for ethnocide, then please state the period and time of said ethnocide.....is that reasonable enough for you?

I am pretty sure you are not a mind reader. But to test it, let me know what I think of you right now.

Warm and fuzzy thoughts perhaps?

Hey look at me ... one liners are easy.

Why you gotta peg me as the one-liner king, when you yourself has yet to contribute any substance to my posts?

[afterhours]

Here is my take.
The Universities are making fatal definitional assumptions.

The museums too?

Everybody knows there was absolutely no such thing as "Greeks" in the historical time you refer to above.

That's news to me! What were the Greeks then, Martians?

As a consequence, there are a significant number of delusional morons who equate many of these ancient races of people with modern Greeks.

And why is that so wrong? Did the ancient and Medieval Greeks pack up camp and disappear suddenly? Come on Risto! I don't even think that you believe what you just wrote!

Interestingly enough, in complete contrast, there have always been Macedonians.

I was unaware of that! Fascinating!

[afterhours]

THere was no word for Greeks ntil 1832 when Greece was called Greece

Wow, what a shifty bunch! Never existed till 1832, huh?!

Are you the best and the brightest that Macedonia has to offer George?

It's a Latin word.

And?

Please remind me what the East calls the Greeks...can you do that for me?

What were Greeks called formerly?

A long, documented history in the region allows for more than one identifying marker...no? Am I wrong Geo?

they were called Achaens,then Romaioi,then Hellenes.Now the Greeks are trying to convince everyone that they are really Macedonians.The fact is the Greeks can't make up their mind on their own identity!

No comment at this point. Start a new thread and I will gladly ontribute by giving my two cents!

[afterhours]

Back to the topic!

THE GOVERNMENT MUSEUM AND ART GALLERY
Chandigarh, India

THE GRECO-BUDDHIST ART OF GANDHARA

http://chdmuseum.nic.in/art_gallery/kushana_sculpture.html

When Alexander of Macedon died in 323 B.C., a number of his generals set up independent kingdoms. The whole of Western Asia, (present-day Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan) became Hellenistic; Greco-Roman fashions, customs and art, coins, language and dresses dominated. Most people were Asians, many intermarried with Greeks and Romans. New religions sprang up, among them Mithraism, Isis-worship, Manichaeism, and also Christianity.

About the 1st century B.C. a large number of these foreigners settled in the Buddhist border kingdom of Gandhara that stretched from the Kabul valley to Rawalpindi. Most of these settlers were converted to Buddhism, built monasteries, temples and stupas, and created a vigorous art movement, the so-called Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara. Though superficially there were Greco-Roman elements in this art, it was essentially an Indian art. These Hellenistic elements continued under the Central Asian rulers, the Kushanas, who conquered Mathura and Gandhara by the 2nd century A.D.

[Bij]

my dearest afterhours,

yes, i have been to greece. both proper and aegean, but the real question is, have you ever been to Macedonia?

also, you harp on about the ancients and sticking strictly to ancient sources, yet you have only provided like 5 sources that you keep repeating. yet, these sources are not ancient at all. in fact, they are pretty much postmodern in their views (despite their subjects being rather old). this then makes views in threat of becoming a little bit didactic. it is very clear your intention here is to be a jerk off, but if you are really a man after my heart, how about varying up your sources a bit?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Should I not respond then when other posters are addressing my posts?
How exactly would you like me to conduct myself in the future?

Like a sensible person, you know exactly what I am talking about so don't smartass around. Use a single post when responding to an individual's single post, not with multiple three-liner posts. It is a waste of space and dilutes the significance of the information on the thread. I am sure you can manage that.

Southern Greek colonies were also created in Epirus where other Greeks lived.

When? Where in Epirus? Which Hellenes already in Epirus? Which Hellenes from the south? Important questions, appreciate an answer to them.

So material evidence and archaeology of the ancient world are not enough shreds to prove otherwise?

I'm not suggesting anything...the museums that I've posted are doing all the suggesting.

You are the one who made the false suggestion that there were people who underwent Hellenization as early as, or prior to, the 8th century BC. There is no evidence for this, period. If you have something that the rest of us in the world have not yet been 'enlightened' with, then go ahead and share it.

Your links about Pyrrhus and Epirus are best saved for your ethnic Albanian friends, as I stated earlier. The fact remains, where it concerns the Molossians; only from the 5th century BC are they known to receive actual Hellenic influence, everything prior being largely based on myth. Same as the Macedonians and many others that lived north of the Hellenic city-states.

Not at all, but that's not exactly what these "selected" museums are saying.

The opinion of "selected" museums does not outweigh the obvious facts. Not only Macedonians, but Thracians, Illyrians and other non-Hellenes did use the Hellenic language for certain purposes, and this happened due to a lack of such a literary tradition in the native languages (Macedonian, Thracian, Illyrian, etc).

Show me what makes the Macedonians more Hellenic than Thracians and Illyrians. Can you do this, or am I asking for too much?

[Soldier of Macedon]

There were definitely Greek colonies spread out throughout the Mediterranean, but to say that Koine became a lingua franca 350 years before Alex the Great was born and centuries before Koine was even created is just not accurate.

You are playing with terminology. Granted, Koine wasn't in existence but Hellenic dialects and the language itself were, look how far it was spread across the European and Asian coasts in the 7th century BC, this is before the Hellenic colonies of the 5th century BC in Macedonia and other surrounding regions.

Why would Hellenes colonise Asian and distant European coasts prior to Macedonia and other nearby non-Hellenic territories? Where are the Hellenic colonies 'from' Macedonia to Asian and European coasts during the 7th century BC? How did the Macedonians remain ignorant "Hellenes" while the others progressed? Was it easier for an Athenian to travel 1000km by sea than it was for a Macedonian to travel south by land for a few 100km? Let's get to the core of your argument.

[afterhours]

my dearest afterhours,

yes, i have been to greece. both proper and aegean,

You have a nice time? The chicks are smoking bro!

but the real question is, have you ever been to Macedonia?

Unfortunately no. Would love to go! One of my best friends is Macedonian, I grew up with him, and he always invites me, but I haven't made the effort....yet! Where do you recomend I visit if I decide to go?

also, you harp on about the ancients and sticking strictly to ancient sources, yet you have only provided like 5 sources that you keep repeating.

Not once have I repeated any of my sources!

I have more if you'd like!

yet, these sources are not ancient at all. in fact, they are pretty much postmodern in their views (despite their subjects being rather old).

And does that make them any less believable?

this then makes views in threat of becoming a little bit didactic. it is very clear your intention here is to be a jerk off,

Sarcasm aside, I started posting here because I was banned from Maknews for posting these very links. This is an archaeology thread, right? Why should I have to fear getting banned for posting relevant material? Makes no sense!

but if you are really a man after my heart, how about varying up your sources a bit?

What do you mean?

[afterhours]

Btw (not like you guys give a shit or anything), I just spun a killer set last night!

[afterhours]

Like a sensible person, you know exactly what I am talking about so don't smartass around. Use a single post when responding to an individual's single post, not with multiple three-liner posts. It is a waste of space and dilutes the significance of the information on the thread. I am sure you can manage that.

Done and done!

When? Where in Epirus? Which Hellenes already in Epirus? Which Hellenes from the south? Important questions, appreciate an answer to them..

Already posted some primary sources...you want me to go back again and retrieve those pertinent posts? More than happy to accommodate you soldier! Just let me know what you need!

You are the one who made the false suggestion that there were people who underwent Hellenization as early as, or prior to, the 8th century BC. There is no evidence for this, period. If you have something that the rest of us in the world have not yet been 'enlightened' with, then go ahead and share it.

I was referring to Greek colonization.

Your links about Pyrrhus and Epirus are best saved for your ethnic Albanian friends, as I stated earlier. The fact remains, where it concerns the Molossians; only from the 5th century BC are they known to receive actual Hellenic influence, everything prior being largely based on myth. Same as the Macedonians and many others that lived north of the Hellenic city-states.

"Myth" or not, they nonetheless considered themselves Greeks.

The proof is in the pudding, and I already provided valid sources (primary mind you!) for you to peruse at your own liesure!

The opinion of "selected" museums does not outweigh the obvious facts.

Does select museums mean no museums at all? Cause the opinion of The Louvre and The Hermitage provide ample facts!

Not only Macedonians, but Thracians, Illyrians and other non-Hellenes did use the Hellenic language for certain purposes, and this happened due to a lack of such a literary tradition in the native languages (Macedonian, Thracian, Illyrian, etc).

Thracian and Illyrian already had documented languages....where was the Macedonian?

Show me what makes the Macedonians more Hellenic than Thracians and Illyrians. Can you do this, or am I asking for too much?

The Thracians and Illyrians were Hellenized, whereas the Macedonians just had Hellenism handy!

[afterhours]

You are playing with terminology. Granted, Koine wasn't in existence but Hellenic dialects and the language itself were

NOT playing with terminology! In fact, it was one of your compatriots that stated that Koine existed 350 years before the Hellenistic Era even began!

[afterhours]

Why would Hellenes colonise Asian and distant European coasts prior to Macedonia and other nearby non-Hellenic territories? Where are the Hellenic colonies 'from' Macedonia to Asian and European coasts during the 7th century BC? How did the Macedonians remain ignorant "Hellenes" while the others progressed? Was it easier for an Athenian to travel 1000km by sea than it was for a Macedonian to travel south by land for a few 100km? Let's get to the core of your argument.

They just were! They (like their Epirot brothers) were Hellenistic right off the bat!

[Soldier of Macedon]

NOT playing with terminology! In fact, it was one of your compatriots that stated that Koine existed 350 years before the Hellenistic Era even began!

You know what he was trying to say, and you're still avoiding the main point and the other questions that I asked of you in relation to that point.

They just were! They (like their Epirot brothers) were Hellenistic right off the bat!

Yes, sure, Hellenistic right off the bat! Like from the 8th century BC? From when is "off the bat" according to you?

When? Where in Epirus? Which Hellenes already in Epirus? Which Hellenes from the south? Important questions, appreciate an answer to them.

Already posted some primary sources...you want me to go back again and retrieve those pertinent posts? More than happy to accommodate you soldier! Just let me know what you need!

Yes, that is why I asked. Show me answers specifically to the above 4 questions.

I was referring to Greek colonization.

Although linked, that is not the same thing as Hellenization, which is what you said. Be more specific next time.

"Myth" or not, they nonetheless considered themselves Greeks.

No, they did not consider themselves 'Greeks'. They received Hellenic influence from the 5th century BC an only after this do they begin to be considered Hellenes by some writers. Their origins are not Hellenic.

Does select museums mean no museums at all? Cause the opinion of The Louvre and The Hermitage provide ample facts!

This is not a matter of comparing museums. If a museum has a collection of artifacts from Macedonia with inscriptions in the Hellenic tongue, and makes the conclusion that the Macedonian population was 'Hellenic' based on these items, it does not take away from the fact that similar artifacts with inscriptions in the Hellenic tongue have been found in Illyria and Thrace, and used by Illyrians and Thracians.

Thracian and Illyrian already had documented languages....where was the Macedonian?

Show me examples of these documented languages. What do you mean 'documented'? Documented how, citations, inscriptions, etc? Provide evidence for both Illyrian and Thracian.

The Thracians and Illyrians were Hellenized, whereas the Macedonians just had Hellenism handy!

Define 'handy'?

[Bij]

i won't sit here and argue about greek women and their looks. i spent too much time in gym class in high school with the hairy moles and have nothing nice to say

afterhours, you have posted the getty, met, blah blah blah repeatedly. do widen your base. there is more to ancient history than these sources.

reading your posts here, i sincerely have the feeling that you weren't banned for that reason from maknews.

so lets get to the point. WHY are you posting these links? surely its not because you think they're pretty. you have an agenda, why don't you make it clear so we can get to the core of why you're really here.

off topic - do you dj house music? are you from detroit or windsor? Bitola is my hometown so it naturally is a place i'm partial to, but Ohrid has some awesome dj's spinning there annually. Worth checking out IMHO. I've seen Bob Sinclair, Eric Prydz in Ohrid and Sandra Collins and Marco Mei in BT.