The Macedonian Cause

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  • Rogi
    replied
    7 years since the last post on this topic and I thought now is quite an appropriate time for this kind of topic to be brought back into the light, particularly amidst this time where it seems the Republic of Macedonia and particularly its' Government, is struggling to define its' existential purpose.

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  • AMHRC
    replied
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    I would like to get some opinions on the term 'delo', as in the Macedonian newspaper 'Makedonsko Delo' for 'Macedonian Cause'.
    SoM, as you are no doubt aware, there was a long tradition within the Macedonian liberation movements, from the late 19th. and early 20th. centuries of referring to the Macedonian cause as Makedonskoto Delo, so I think that is a reasonable suggestion. It's true that today it is rarely used in that manner, though it would not confuse anyone in Macedonia.

    Another option might be Makedonsko Pravo...
    Last edited by AMHRC; 05-01-2011, 08:03 PM.

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  • Risto the Great
    replied
    You are right Serdarot. It would appear we cannot work with people like you. People who come on a forum and say they are "unhappy" with it. Then do not explain why, then suggest they are "unhappy" about people trying to claim the Macedonian Cause as their own AFTER it was observed the Cause, as written on the MTO, was used on another forum you visited.

    For the benefit of readers, we have a classic case of misinformation here that unfortunately is a by-product of forums. Only a handful of forum participants read the forum closely enough to know all the nuances and interactions of members in relation to particular issues. In this particular instance, Rogi had discussed privately with a few of us a piece of work he thought made sense. We agreed it had merit and left it at that for some time.

    After some frustrations dealing with the UMD's inconsistent ideology and its attempts to be THE representative of the Macedonian Diaspora, I made the following post:



    I have noticed myself feeling somewhat angry that a group purporting to represent me is not doing what I want. A simple answer is why not become more involved and help to influence the UMD's actions. It is certainly valid.

    But being so annoyed with the state of Macedonia and the mixed messages coming from its leaders, I see a dire need for constructive and thoughtful criticism coming from people that care about the future of the country.

    Let us pretend in fairy land that Macedonia becomes Northern Macedonia at the blink of an Ivanovian eye, would the UMD rename itself to UNMD? It aligns itself "steadfastly" with the people of Macedonia so it probably has little choice.

    Greece & Bulgaria make it very clear that our Macedonia nation and ethnic Macedonians are not desirable. This is war and our Diaspora representatives are comfortable with "dialogue". I am not. I accept we are not an island, and cannot maintain a complete isolationist policy. But I am also extremely sure this posturing by Greece and (more recently) Bulgaria is simply a game of poker that they hope to win through utter pomposity and wistful exuberance.

    If Macedonia does not want to be an island and insists on dialogue, then the need for a hard no-compromise edge is essential in an external organisation. We do not have one that maintains such a focus. Do we hope the UMD changes (or reveals) its colour OR de we create a new organisation that truly reflects the wishes of the Diaspora?

    With "the blink of an eye" an internet organisation can become very significant. I see no reason why the Macedonian Truth Organisation's "soldiers" cannot up the ante if nobody else is prepared to do it.

    Clearly the generally accepted wishes of the Diaspora need to be defined. Some wishes appear obvious to me:
    • Macedonia for the Macedonians.
    • No compromises on name or identity issues whatsoever.
    • Macedonia is the fatherland of Macedonians.
    • Traditions and culture of Macedonians must be preserved.
    • Language of Macedonians must be respected.
    • Ohrid agreement represents a dilution of Macedonian sovereignty and must be wound back.


    At this point, we should consider Arrow's impossibility theorem
    The framework for Arrow's theorem assumes that we need to extract a preference order on a given set of options (outcomes). Each individual in the society (or equivalently, each decision criterion) gives a particular order of preferences on the set of outcomes. We are searching for a preferential voting system, called a social welfare function, which transforms the set of preferences into a single global societal preference order.

    I am also reminded of a book called "The handbook for a positive revolution" written by Edward De Bono.
    Handbook for the Positive Revolution, a 1991 book by Edward de Bono, deals with concepts and practical application of: effectiveness, constructive way forward, respect, human values, self improvement and contribution as the way of empowering individuals. The title refers to the use of an open hand (pun intended) as a symbol of positive intentions, of the quiet, non-violant revolution in thinking, changing attitudes and altering perceptions. This revolution is to be inspired by the opportunities offered by the electronic age of information. [1] The little finger is used as a mnemonic device, to remind the participant, that even the smallest contribution is better than criticism. De Bono suggests that "The greatest strength of this serious revolution is that it will not be taken seriously. There is no greater power than to be effective and not taken seriously."
    The book was quite basic, yet provided a framework in my mind of a potential system that could ensure how negativity detrimental to the viability of Macedonia could be avoided. It would not be a bad thing to empower the Macedonian people. We have successive governments that have been unable to do it.

    Is the UMD capable of doing this?

    I invited some local (Adelaide) Macedonians to participate on this forum. I used an email from a sub-section of our local community with a mailing list that clearly indicated all the email recipients. I copied these recipients (the majority of whom I know personally) and invited them to join this forum. The response I received (forwarded to all recipients of my invitation) from the community representative was a complete distancing from my email and further protestations in the following manner:
    our organisation does not indorse (sic) any nationalistic or inhumane views that this particular forum is promoting, which undermines other people who are a non-Macedonian background, their safety, wellbeing (sic) or culture. We work and strive to create a space for learning around cultural issues, traumatic experiences, peaceful and positive strategies in dealing with any conflict at individual, relationship and community level.
    The above paragraph sounds like a UMD initiative in the making. Disappointingly, "nationalistic views" are deemed offensive and not worthy of endorsing.

    This is the VICTIM mentality that Macedonians have endured for about 2300 years now. Is anyone really ready to stand up? God forbid, the first thing that might happen will be self-respect.

    Rogi made a point yesterday about the "Macedonian cause" and its needs for a definition. It is always easier to say what something isn't. I am not sure if anyone has bothered to define what it isn't yet. But surely it is not abandoning our sovereign identity. This definition needs thought and is a worthy pursuit. It must not be vague as too many politicians and organisations have relied on ambiguous statements in the past. If we cannot be decisive, others will be decisive on our behalf. I am not prepared to accept this but I am sure that some Macedonians would accept this in accordance with the VICTIM mentality that is prevalent in modern Macedonian society.

    The first question is does anyone care?
    Clearly identifying a Macedonian cause or objectives is essential. Some breezy mission is not good enough. There must be some non-negotiable declarations.

    The second question is can we find enough people whose interests and concerns in relation to Macedonia are aligned?
    By identifying the objectives/cause, will we sideline too many people? We may be considered too offensive to many VICTIMS.

    The third question is what are you prepared to sacrifice as a consequence of caring?
    This comes at a cost. Financially, this post alone has cost me $300 of my chargeable time. We may not be welcome in Macedonia if we attack the Government. We may not be appreciated in our own households if we keep "fighting for Macedonia" instead of being with our families. These are all valid concerns and will impact upon what we are willing to do in relation to retaining and treasuring our wonderful Macedonian ethnic and national identity.

    The fourth question is is there enough capability amongst our people to break free from this VICTIM mindset?
    Yes there is.

    ******************

    Rogi followed up my post (on the above thread) with a timely reminder of the Macedonian Cause as he had previously drafted.

    My response:
    Originally posted by Risto the Great
    The UMD might be useful in Washington. They could end up being some vague reminder of "Macedonia" to some Washington lobbyists and politicians. The more non-negotiable work might have to be done by another group with less political sensibilities. Both might be sensible in the future. But will not talk to each other unless they can agree on a common cause .............. cue Rogi
    Originally posted by Rogi
    Thanks a lot Risto! To date, you're the only one who has actually commented on drafting the definition of the Macedonian Cause and getting it right!

    I'll start a new thread called "The Macedonian Cause" and I'll paste my draft in there (from the artofmacedonism.com website), could you make it a sticky thread and it can be a separate thread where each person can post their addition or edit to the definition, with a moderator then editing the very first post to include those edits/additions/feedback until we all agree it is complete, absolute, unwavering and can only be interpreted in one way.... effectively perfect and timeless.
    So, in a nutshell, the MTO has never claimed ownership of the Macedonian Cause. In fact it is obvious many Macedonian Causes have existed long before this particular one as amended. Equally obvious is none have been defined so clearly. It is obvious Rogi had an original notion of the necessity for the Macedonian Cause. It is obvious the notion was encouraged here.

    No organisation has ever been created before with the sole purpose of pursuing, defending and preserving the Macedonian Cause EXCEPT for MTO Incorporated.

    If anyone wants to take the Macedonian Cause as defined on this forum and use it for themselves or to give the impression they wrote it, we think it is appropriate to explain where they gained their inspiration from. That not being the case, the very least they can do is communicate where they feel they may depart from the Cause as defined on this forum.

    Since incorporation, all I can say is that there appears to be more anonymous people popping out of the woodwork trying to denigrate the MTO. I would much rather they comment on what they disagree with in relation to the Macedonian Cause, because it is what we stand for. There is no room for confusion about this.

    Thank you

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  • Serdarot
    replied
    Jasno e deka poradi razni prichini, megju vodechkata sila na forumov (SoM, RtG i Vangelovski) i mene, ne mozhi da ima konstruktivna sorabotka.

    Vo interes na Makedonskoto i Makedonskata Kauza, se zablagodaruvam na dosegashnoto gostoprimstvo, i na site chlenovi na MTO im posakuvam mnogu uspeshni bitki vo Vojnata za Promocija na Makedonskata Vistina i Tradicionalnite Makedonski Vrednosti, i zachuvuvanje na Makedonskoto ime .

    So ovaj post go prekinuvam moeto aktivno uchestvo na forumov, no si go zadrzhuvam pravoto da si gi koristam materijalite postirani od mene na forumov.

    PoZdrav

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  • Risto the Great
    replied
    No problem Serdarot.
    But you are the moron that said you are unhappy (in English) to begin with.
    The fact you won't tell us what you are unhappy with makes you sound like a little "detense" with no value to society until you grow up.

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  • Serdarot
    replied
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    We stated that the Macedonian Cause was listed on Kajgana without acknowledging where it came from. You said you were unhappy BEFORE we even talked about that. Are you changing your reason for not being happy Serdarot?

    ...

    By the way, do you agree with the Cause?
    1. bla bla drn drn, ponatamoshna demagogija i suspected that you are trying to claim the credits, and the reactions of all 3 of you just confirmed that, or better said, you failed to convince me that you are not trying to claim all the credits.

    2. at least we agree that we donīt like opportunists and the profiteers

    3. is this some echo? how many times i have to write it, so you will understand?

    Prvo Kauza na Makedonski, posle MOZHI ke pisham "agree with this, disagree with this"

    Komprende?

    Da ti napisham na nekoj drug jazik? Izgleda Makedonski slabo znajsh, a na mojot skromen angliski ne me razbra...

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  • Risto the Great
    replied
    We stated that the Macedonian Cause was listed on Kajgana without acknowledging where it came from. You said you were unhappy BEFORE we even talked about that. Are you changing your reason for not being happy Serdarot?

    I might need to see an eye doctor but first I would need to visit your engineers, because I am not sure your time machine is working as well as it should be.

    Without any respect for opportunists and those who are trying to profit from the Macedonian Problems.
    I have no idea what or who this is aimed at so will assume we agree about this together if we are talking about the same "what" and "who".

    I am interested in your Macedonian Cause that precedes the one that appeared here on the MTO thanks to Rogi's contribution and my insistence of its pursuit. It would be great to compare them and see whether we all hold the same things dear. So please show us your Cause so we can further the cause together.

    By the way, do you agree with the Cause?

    Leave a comment:


  • Serdarot
    replied
    Gledam navistina treba da posetish ochen lekar, zato sho ti napishav...


    Ke ti prevedam:

    I can write if i agree or disagree (IF I LIKE TO WRITE my comment HERE) AFTER you translate the Cause into Macedonian.

    I will be so nice to add this:

    I am unhappy to see you are claiming the very creation and the development of the Macedonian Cause, because it existed before any of you / us was born.

    Further, you 3 being rude and using such vocabulary is speaking much about you.

    Without any respect for opportunists and those who are trying to profit from the Macedonian Problems.

    Goce

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  • Risto the Great
    replied
    Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
    Koe prashanje, Risto?

    ti rekov, ko ke prevedite na Makedonski, ako sakam i mislam deka e potrebno, ke go napisham moeto mislenje tuka.
    My question was asked in relation to your original comment below:
    Originally posted by Serdarot
    i am very thanksfull that you started this subject. but i am unhappy to see in what all this turned...
    I asked if there was anything you disagreed with about the Cause. If in fact you were disagreeing with something else, only you and your psychiatrist could possibly know.

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  • Serdarot
    replied
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    No problem Serdarot.
    Ne beri gajle .... one day you might reach me.

    You still never answered my question.

    By the way, I personally deleted the icon for the Ventilator, I hope this one is ok with you.
    Koe prashanje, Risto?

    ti rekov, ko ke prevedite na Makedonski, ako sakam i mislam deka e potrebno, ke go napisham moeto mislenje tuka.

    a za "icon" "ventilator", sho da ti recham, osven kupi si novi naochari

    moeto e pogolemo od tvoeto

    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
    You really are in a league of your own. The only thing that I'm curious about is how much acid one would need to consume in their lifetime to reach your level?
    nemoj da zemash drogi, ke ti shteti



    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    Dokumentot bil sozdaden tuka. Ne bre kako na drvo mu zboram, nishto ne razbirash, ni po engleski, ni po makedonski.

    Tvoeto 'mislenje' e zaginato nekade vo nekoje shishe, baraisi go na pat.

    Ko kje go upotrebuvate istiot tekst, zbor za zbor, pa togash da.
    tochno, ko na drvo, ko na dzid.

    tochkata broj eden , formulirana na drugo mesto, dovolna da go pobie tvoeto "zbor po zbor"

    Ne znaish, ili ne sakash da se setish? Tuka kje mi se odnesuvash kako nekoje pijanichishte, a do chera go braneshe koristenjeto na novoto zname oti si tolku tvrdoglaven za bezobrazni raboti. Kizni kako se razbervaat drugite so tebe po lice, mozhi mu treba preveduvach, lol.
    SoM, a be kako mojte vaka?

    Pa go najdovte choeko

    Ne pijam i ne pusham... A sakam da najdish kaj go branam ventilatorot

    So vakvi budalosti samo potvrduvash deka nepismen si. Prodolzhi.

    Haha, aj dosta brchi be, samo vo edna 'liga' se naogjaat lugje kako tebe, liga sardisana so lekari.
    Koga jas koristev nekulturen rechnik, mi reche deka "ne e granted", demek, ke me banirate ako ne prekinam.

    Vas vi e "granted" da gi navreduvate chlenovite?

    Leave a comment:


  • Soldier of Macedon
    replied
    Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
    Ne si dal nikomu nekakov "dokument.........
    Dokumentot bil sozdaden tuka. Ne bre kako na drvo mu zboram, nishto ne razbirash, ni po engleski, ni po makedonski.
    Moe mislenje e deka imash problem so precepcija i so tvoeto ego.
    Tvoeto 'mislenje' e zaginato nekade vo nekoje shishe, baraisi go na pat.
    Zato sho so Bratot i drugi lugje sme razmenuvale misli i idei na skype ili na msn, znachi deka treba da pishime sekade "ovaa misla ja razvivavme na skype, ovaa na msn
    Ko kje go upotrebuvate istiot tekst, zbor za zbor, pa togash da.
    A neznam od kade to "animosity"... Jas i pokraj site navredi od tebe i drugi, se obiduvam da bidam konstruktiven.
    Ne znaish, ili ne sakash da se setish? Tuka kje mi se odnesuvash kako nekoje pijanichishte, a do chera go braneshe koristenjeto na novoto zname oti si tolku tvrdoglaven za bezobrazni raboti. Kizni kako se razbervaat drugite so tebe po lice, mozhi mu treba preveduvach, lol.
    Da ne se osekjash inferiorno?
    So vakvi budalosti samo potvrduvash deka nepismen si. Prodolzhi.
    Nemash potreba, ne sme si konkurencija, ne sme voopshto vo ista liga
    Haha, aj dosta brchi be, samo vo edna 'liga' se naogjaat lugje kako tebe, liga sardisana so lekari.

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  • Vangelovski
    replied
    Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
    ne sme voopshto vo ista liga
    You really are in a league of your own. The only thing that I'm curious about is how much acid one would need to consume in their lifetime to reach your level?

    Leave a comment:


  • Risto the Great
    replied
    No problem Serdarot.
    Tebe mozham da ti "post a copy" od neshto sho sum napravil, ko ke te smetam za EQUAL.

    Sega si daleku od to
    Ne beri gajle .... one day you might reach me.

    You still never answered my question.

    By the way, I personally deleted the icon for the Ventilator, I hope this one is ok with you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Serdarot
    replied
    Ne si dal nikomu nekakov "dokument", tuku Makedonci gi iskazhuvaa svoite misli kako bi trebalo da se definira Makedonskata Kauza vo deneshni uslovi, i ja razvivaa temata, i tuka, i na kajgana, i na drugi mesta...

    Ne ti teknalo ni tebe, ni na Rogi, ni na Bratot, ni mene.

    MTO nema nikakvi "avtorski prava", isto kako sho nema ni kajgana. (bez razlika sho tochka broj eden i drugi delovi se definirani na kajgana, a drugi tochki se definirani tuka)

    Moe mislenje e deka imash problem so precepcija i so tvoeto ego.

    Ko so dzid da zboram.

    Aj ke probam da ti nacrtam.

    Zato sho so Bratot i drugi lugje sme razmenuvale misli i idei na skype ili na msn, znachi deka treba da pishime sekade "ovaa misla ja razvivavme na skype, ovaa na msn"???????????????

    I velish deka ne sakate "credits"?

    Oti ova diskusija, ako e taka?

    A neznam od kade to "animosity"... Jas i pokraj site navredi od tebe i drugi, se obiduvam da bidam konstruktiven. Da ne zborash za tebe? Imash nekakov "animosity" sprema mene?

    Da ne se osekjash inferiorno?

    Nemash potreba, ne sme si konkurencija, ne sme voopshto vo ista liga

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    replied
    Your semantics on this thread are but mere garbage. We are not looking for credit in respect to instigating the Macedonian Cause, nor do we seek exclusivity. All we sought is for the document that was created and developed here to be referenced when cited elsewhere. That is a fair request. If people like yourself and Bratot don't wish to cite the reference for whatever reason, I am not too concerned. I just wanted to know why you felt the need not to mention the MTO, given that this is where you obtained the document from. Your replies point to some stupid and misguided animosity towards us. That's fine.

    Leave a comment:

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