The Macedonian Cause

[Risto the Great]

Now the discussion is fun!
I realise the complexity of this issue. That is why ultimately I am happy to accept point 6) as it stands.

But in the Balkans, we play with different rules than the rest of Europe. Acknowledgment of the MOC is part of acknowledging our nation. I may offend some Albanians when I say that religion is less meaningful to them. But the Albanians from Albania had very little to do with their faiths for quite a long time last century. They are extremely proud to promote their secularism. Meanwhile in Kosovo, they listen to Arab radio broadcasts every night.

Bratot, my "personal cause" is to redeem all Grkomani in time. But I understand the majority have no major interest in this. It therefore remains my personal cause and is not part of the broader cause.

Makedonin wrote:

we should not forget that the same Orthodox faith bound on Nationalism have done the most damage to our Macedonian cause and identity (i.e. Partirarchist v.s. Exarchists) than anything else.

I agree with this. For me, Orthodox religion in Macedonia reached its peak in the 1700's until the abolishment of the Ohrid Archbishopric.

Maybe I am not getting my message across. The Macedonian Cause is an advertisement to entice as many followers as possible to a belief system. It is worded to entice as many people as possible but it must remain powerfully relevant to as many people as possible.

Here is something we could say to the Torbeshi .... You gave up your ancestor's faith so that you could defend yourselves with guns of Islam. You have nothing to fear now, come back.

Of course I am joking, but the message is clear. Macedonians generally do not want a muslim state. They generally oppose other Christian faiths because they hold on to what they have.

I am far from being a religious zealot. But I am thinking much more from a "fitness for purpose" than some of you I believe.

But, as I said earlier, original 6) statement is fine.

[Risto the Great]

Just to clarify, are some of you saying point 6) should not be in?

"The absolute recognition and acceptance of the Macedonian Orthodox Church"

I thought we were debating the merit of defining a Macedonian Christian tradition. But now I think you want this removed as well.

Just trying to clarify. I know we can all be good Macedonian without religion, but I also know that the MOC is part of the fight.

[Bratot]

Risto.. read the conversation all over again if you tend to imply something.

Point 6) stays in the cause.

But I don't accept the suggestions on the previous page.

[Rogi]

This is funny and amusing. I'm so glad this whole discussion has taken place.

You wont believe how much I argued with myself when writing this up, particularly over this point.

That's why I just left it at "Respect and recognition of: 6) Macedonian Orthodox Church".

I felt that covered everything, without being exclusive (i.e. respect and recognition of the Church and its influence over our identity, without basing our identity solely on the Church and religious views)

Very happy to see the to-and-fro I did in my own mind, being replicated by all of you in this thread. Good to see we all think alike.

[Pelister]

There are arguments against that, for example, Bogomilism began in Macedonia by Macedonians... the wording should be precise and definite, but very well thought out.

I'll provide you with some evidence regarding the Macedonian Christian Tradition - if you think it didn't exist, or wasn't there or something else like that.

The tradition begins with Paul and still survives today. I'm not sure how else to word it - but Sveta Gora was a Macedonian mountain, its monasteries full of Macedonians.

I have evidence of this from N. Oikonomides.

[Pelister]

The Macedonian Orthodox Church is part of the Macedonian Christian Tradition.

The Macedonian Christian Tradition embodies far more than simply a Church. It should be noted that it was a way of life - a monastic way of life for many, plus ...

I know that the Churches were responsible for education, for civil disputes and the maintenances of local government services, such as sanitation ...etc. They were also libraries, among many other things.

[Rogi]

Another point not yet discussed is about the Komiti and VMRO, who were fighters for the Macedonian cause and the fact that in order to join them you would need to take an oath. The bible, the knife and the gun were fundamental to them and that too further highlights the importance of the Christian religion to their definition and fight for the Macedonian cause- and I see them as the founding fathers of our cause, so ignoring the Christian Orthodox aspect of the Macedonian identity in a definition of the Macedonian cause, ignores their definition of the Macedonian cause.

[Bratot]

I think you missed the point.

so ignoring the Christian Orthodox aspect of the Macedonian identity in a definition of the Macedonian cause

The point is with ignoring the other religious confessions you divide the Macedonian national core basing the national feeling on the religious.

Which nowdays is absurdity, since we don't fight against Turks, but we strive to unite the Macedonians (without any exceptions) to work for our common interest, for the Macedonian cause.

Macedonian cause from 1893 and 2009 doesn't have to be identical, nor it's posible, since we are in totally different situation.

One point of our cause is to preserve the identity of MOC , because the name of the church incorporates our identity and thats the object of negation by our neighbours.

[makedonin]

Macedonian cause from 1893 and 2009 doesn't have to be identical, nor it's posible, since we are in totally different situation.

exactly my thougts

history is interesting, but can't apply to modern circumstances. if some one try to do this, it will be his demise.

just look at the grks.

[Risto the Great]

Based on my previous comments, you might be surprised to hear my opinion that we no longer need to make kletvi on the Bible. This was merely something the Macedonians learned from others before them. The difference being the organised church was their enemy by the time of the Ilinden fighters.

Bratot wrote:

One point of our cause is to preserve the identity of MOC , because the name of the church incorporates our identity and thats the object of negation by our neighbours.

Bratot, I find your thoughts confusing in relation to this. Your only motivation for the MOC's preservation appears to be based on the fact it begins with "M". There has to be more of a reason than that. I am positive you know the significance of the Macedonian church throughout much of our history.

We modern Macedonians have so many choices as far as faith go now (including lack thereof), The cause does not have to make us religious zealots, but if we agree to include point 6), then we are insisting on absolute respect for the MOC whilst ignoring/disrespecting it for ourselves. I find this challenging because I am not particularly religious at all. So the hypocrisy rests with me quite firmly.

[Bratot]

Bratot, I find your thoughts confusing in relation to this. Your only motivation for the MOC's preservation appears to be based on the fact it begins with "M". There has to be more of a reason than that. I am positive you know the significance of the Macedonian church throughout much of our history.

RTG...

The name of MOC is the only motivation for our negators to deny our nationality.
For them it's fine if instead of MOC the name would be the Ochrid Archbishopric.

I'm totally aware of the significance of our Macedonian church.

[Pelister]

How can you put dates on a "cause" when the we have been at war for centures, and centuries?

[Bratot]

- Обединување на Македонската нација од сите континенти и тесна координација на сите активности

[Risto the Great]

Nothing wrong with that Bratot, but please .... can we have less Englishisms. In fact, preservation of the language is already part of the cause.

[Bratot]

Explain what u mean, I'm not sure if I understand ur point.