The Macedonian Cause

[Risto the Great]

Hello Friends,

I just wanted to jump in here to say I support what's being derived here and am proud of the work being done by all those involved. I support the document as written in principal feeling that it reflects my thoughts and feelings as a Macedonian who's hopeful that someday we will finally achieve the basic human rights that we desire and deserve as a people who have suffered and are still suffering to this day and in this age in the modern Europe.

I do however want to offer an opinion regarding our identity. Perhaps in the opening lines of the document before the cause is actually spelled out we can indicate in some clear way that Macedonians are a unique ethnic identity living among the diverse ethno-cultural and national identities throughout the balkans and are neither 'Greek', 'Serbian' nor 'Bulgarian'. It can go on to say something like 'heretofore referred to simply as Macedonians'. I think this is important to add because this way we'll have a buffer and an answer to the 'new Greek' false identity of the 'Greek Macedonian' and to shield our cause against any cunning 'Bulgarian' operatives whose tactics are to show up as 'patriotic' Macedonians but at the end of the day and in the long run will subvert the cause and claim a Macedonian is ethnically 'Bulgarian'.

Pozdravi Makedonchina,

Silver

Thanks Silver,
Welcome!

You make a solid point, an introduction in the opening lines is quite appropriate.

Even thought the following text makes it clear later in the text:

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of the;

1) national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) Macedonian people, language and identity
3) Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) Macedonian Orthodox Church

This needs some thought but it has my vote. Suggestions guys?

[Silver]

Thanks Daskalot and thanks RTG! This is a great website!

The reason I think we should clearly indicate what our identity is not is to prevent our definition from being taken out of context by our enemies. It's sad to say 'our enemies' but unfortunately that's just how it is and that's why we have a cause.

Although the section you point out RTG clearly outlines the goals of our cause and is great, I feel the whole document or whatever form we wish to give it still allows for misinterpretation however. What I'm getting at of course goes back to 1913 when Macedonia was invaded and partitioned among the three neighbours who then proceeded to forcibly and brutaly assimulate the Macedonian people three different ways. All with the blessing of the super powers of the time ie England, France and Russia. Suddenly a man could be Macedonian, but his sister a 'Greek' and his brother a 'Bulgarian'.

To this day Europeans like to generalize along national lines to suit their interests. I'm in total agreement that we seek a unification in the form of a cultural kinship etc while we are not looking to change borders. That isn't necessary and shouldn't be in order for one to enjoy his own culture, even for a Macedonian! But our current situation stems from the 1913 invasion and the fact that most of the world has been lied to regarding our existance and is still confused as to who are the Macedonians because the 'Greeks', 'Serbs' and 'Bulgars' have spoken for us ever since. They negate us and claim that we are something else than what we really are. Before the Republic when I would tell a grkoman that I'm Macedonian they would often say 'show me on a map where is Macedonia?' This needs to be corrected and we need to let the world know the Truth. No one else will do it for us. However, 'Greece' and 'Bulgaria' are still actively trying to destroy or 'unique' identity.

That's why I believe we need to chisel in and express what we are not as much as what we are in order to protect our cause from misinterpretation by our enemies who will use it against us. We also need to roll back what the outside world has been brainwashed to believe about Macedonia and the Macedonians.

[Bill77]

One should be carefull to not discriminate against macedonians that do not speak a slavic language though.

Oh everyone in the Republic Of Macedonia speak the Macedonian language. Incase we have a few that don't, we will brainwash them, make them take a language oath, and our church can get involved and pour castor oil down the throats of those who speak anything else than Macedonian. if all that fails, we will torture and kill them. That will eliminate the bastards.

By the way...... how about the discrimination against the non Greeks in Nth Greece that can't speek the Greek/turkish language and those that don't feel Greek but feel Macedonia, albanian, turkish, who come under the 99% Greek unbrella.



PS: oh i nearly forgot. Then we will baptise them. That should do the trick.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonians speak the Macedonian language. Geographic 'Macedonians' may speak anything they like, because they are not Macedonians. Alpha, do you have any idea how many people like you have come here pretending to be moderate, and then slowly creeping in racist remarks as time goes by? Spare us your idiocy. If you cannot come to terms with reality then disappear from here.


@Silver, welcome to the MTO. I see your point about putting emphasis on our unique identity, but I don't think we should go out to make the point that we are not this, not that, etc, there is no need in my opinion, the fact that we are Macedonians should be, and is, already a given.

[Risto the Great]

@Silver, welcome to the MTO. I see your point about putting emphasis on our unique identity, but I don't think we should go out to make the point that we are not this, not that, etc, there is no need in my opinion, the fact that we are Macedonians should be, and is, already a given.

SoM, I think it is very important to make a solid definition in the first instance. There would be no room whatsoever for ducking and weaving later on. Whilst extremely narrow in the Cause, there still exists room for interpretation for what a Macedonian is. I like Silver's suggestion.

Have another look with fresh eyes.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have had a look at it from various angles RtG, and I keep coming to the same conclusion; by stating we are not this and not that, it implies that there are assertions that we are in fact this or that. That is why we should instead put emphasis on the fact that we are unique people, let's focus on what we are, not what we aren't (which can indirectly give credit to our enemies unnecessarily). You know what i'm getting at? We are giving credit where it is not due.

That is why this part:

1) national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) Macedonian people, language and identity
3) Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) Macedonian Orthodox Church

........is important, and with a bit more fine tuning, should be sufficient.

I just don't like the idea of mentioning other nations in something that is defined as the Macedonian Cause, and I am having trouble seeing how a citation of their names is valid in this respect.

[Silver]

I have had a look at it from various angles RtG, and I keep coming to the same conclusion; by stating we are not this and not that, it implies that there are assertions that we are in fact this or that. That is why we should instead put emphasis on the fact that we are unique people, let's focus on what we are, not what we aren't (which can indirectly give credit to our enemies unnecessarily). You know what i'm getting at? We are giving credit where it is not due.

That is why this part:


........is important, and with a bit more fine tuning, should be sufficient.

I just don't like the idea of mentioning other nations in something that is defined as the Macedonian Cause, and I am having trouble seeing how a citation of their names is valid in this respect.

Hi SoM,

I understand and respect what you're saying especially about giving anyone undue credit period. Even if we don't mention other nations I believe it's very important that we stress our uniqueness and of course the equality for all citizens of Macedonia at the national level. I also believe there is the reality that or enemies 'Greece' in particular through the 'name negotiations' are vigorously on the job to erase our name and identity. We must defend that at all costs. Any cause that we wish to define must do that sufficiently and forcefully if it is to be of any use to the Macedonian people and to retain their confidence.

I'm not sure if my last point can be achieved if we don't actually mention the fact that we are neither 'Greek', 'Bulgarian' nor 'Serbian'. That is what the lies and layers of confusion they have created to bring us to this point are based on and we cannot give them any outs that would help to destroy our unique identity in the future.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hey Silver, I hear what your saying, I think over the next few days we can discuss this in more detail and come to common ground.

By the way, you're the person who had assumed my avatar after I left Maknews, don't try and pull that stunt here, you hear? Hehe, just kidding, but seriously, don't I am happy that a good Macedonian wears it over there, Phillip is the greatest king that the Macedonian people have ever had

Welcome again to the MTO, I am sure your contributions will be of great value, cheers.

[Daskalot]

I am happy that a good Macedonian wears it over there, Phillip is the greatest king that the Macedonian people have ever had

I thought the greatest king the Macedonian people could ever get is this great one.......

[Risto the Great]

I thought the greatest king the Macedonian people could ever get is this great one.......

Would you believe that picture came from a birthday card my wife gave to me once. I thought it was appropriate because I have been lobbying hard for becoming King of Macedonia.

[Rogi]

I think the addition of the word 'ethnic' in #2 which SoM quoted, in the manner of:

2) Macedonian people, language and ethnic identity


Could remove any 'confusion'.

[Silver]

Hey Silver, I hear what your saying, I think over the next few days we can discuss this in more detail and come to common ground.

By the way, you're the person who had assumed my avatar after I left Maknews, don't try and pull that stunt here, you hear? Hehe, just kidding, but seriously, don't I am happy that a good Macedonian wears it over there, Phillip is the greatest king that the Macedonian people have ever had

Welcome again to the MTO, I am sure your contributions will be of great value, cheers.

Thanks SoM, I completely agree with you about tsar Phillip. Believe it or not I was called by your name once over there but quickly made the correction and told them please do not confuse me with that great Macedonian. I just love the avatar! Hopefully I'll eventually find something that suits me

[Silver]

I think the addition of the word 'ethnic' in #2 which SoM quoted, in the manner of:

2) Macedonian people, language and ethnic identity


Could remove any 'confusion'.

That definitely helps Rogi. Not sure if I make any sense but I'll give it a shot.

The key point I'm trying to make is that the more our cause could somehow protect itself from misrepresentation by our enemies the more it'll cut them of at the legs so to speak to protect the name and identity of the Republic and to bring our people in the occupied regions closer towards self determination and achieving their basic human rights. Otherwise, the cause can and will be used by opportunist shpioni to screw us over like they have in the past. Without the knowledge of being anything less than a fully accredited international lawyer, a rock solid mission statement or in our case 'The Cause' is a very difficult thing I believe to try to achieve and to putt it into writing. In a nationalist Europe our suffering and problems particularly with self determination arose through brutally forced assimilation which has blurred out our identity behind artificial political borders to this day. Therefore, we have to be very clear but also very careful.

Anyways, that's all I'm going to say about it. Best of luck and I support your efforts.

[TrueMacedonian]

This thread is solely devoted to our combined efforts in defining the Macedonian Cause. Please post your feedback, additions and changes in this thread. The moderators will edit this first post to include your changes until we have all agreed on a complete, perfect, unwavering and timeless definition of the Macedonian Cause.
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The Macedonian Cause



Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a free, independent, democratic and sovereign state; is the nation-state of the Macedonian people, culture, language and identity; is the home of all its citizens to which it guarantees all internationally recognised freedoms and rights.

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a safe, stable, economically prosperous and abundant state, which cares and provides for the health and well-being of all its citizens; and provides all its citizens with opportunities for finding love, establishing a family, higher education, personal development, economic prosperity and the overall pursuit of happiness.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of the;

1) national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) Macedonian people, language and identity
3) Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) Macedonian Orthodox Church

Securing recognition by the International Community of the tragedies endured by the Macedonian people, of the division of Macedonia with the signing of the Treaty of Bucharest on August 10, 1913, and the genocide committed against the Macedonian people at the hands of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian states and churches during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Securing the abolishment of any existing laws, regulations and acts that discriminate against the Macedonian people, in any of the countries of the International Community where such laws, regulations and acts exist; thereby ensuring the freedom for Macedonians to practice their culture, language and religious faiths in all the countries of the International Community without hindrance.

The end of self-discrimination of Macedonians and the empowerment of the Macedonian people to liberate themselves from enslaved or victim mindsets and the instilment of deep-rooted national, cultural, linguistic and historical pride of all that is being a Macedonian.

The recognition of the Macedonian minorities in the neighbouring states of the Republic of Macedonia as well as the respect for the Rights and Freedoms of the Macedonian minorities, as provided by the United Nations Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The full and unreserved respect of, and the support for, the Rights of all people of non-Macedonian descent living in Macedonia and around the world, who share a reciprocal full and unreserved respect for the Macedonian people, their homeland and their state.

The cultural unification and solidarity of the Macedonian people living in all parts of Macedonia; the Republic of Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Mala Prespa & Golo Brdo and Gora, as well as Macedonians throughout the world.

The unity of all Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia and throughout the world, on the principles, objectives and achievement of the Macedonian cause as outlined by its definition in this document.

Somehow - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2826 - RTG has inspired me to want to add into the Macedonian Cause "Positivity". Or do we think that "personal development" and "overall pursuit of happiness" states this fact already?

[Risto the Great]

Bravo TM, I think positivity should be part of the cause ... it facilitates personal development and the pursuit of happiness.