The Macedonian Cause

[Buktop]

I may be joining this thread a little late, but an observation I have made over the years of my involvement in Diaspora organizations and Forums is that, when it comes to a document such as the Macedonian Cause, the goals of most Macedonians are well known, understood, accepted and are supported by all or most Macedonians, the key issues that lead to debate is the course undertaken to achieve these goals.

Some people support a more militant, radical approach to achieving recognition and rights for Macedonians, while others support a diplomatic, less abrasive path, as well as any path in between.

My question for this thread is, should we include sections detailing proper approaches to the achievement of goals outlined in the Cause, or should we leave some ambiguity to allow for multiple approaches and diversity in the culmination of our goals?

[Phoenix]

I may be joining this thread a little late, but an observation I have made over the years of my involvement in Diaspora organizations and Forums is that, when it comes to a document such as the Macedonian Cause, the goals of most Macedonians are well known, understood, accepted and are supported by all or most Macedonians, the key issues that lead to debate is the course undertaken to achieve these goals.

Some people support a more militant, radical approach to achieving recognition and rights for Macedonians, while others support a diplomatic, less abrasive path, as well as any path in between.

My question for this thread is, should we include sections detailing proper approaches to the achievement of goals outlined in the Cause, or should we leave some ambiguity to allow for multiple approaches and diversity in the culmination of our goals?

Buktop, what's with you UMD supporters and your penchant for all things ambiguous?

[Rogi]

Each individual, organisation, institution or Government should be left to their own devices and methods for achieving the goals defined in the Macedonian Cause. So long as the Macedonian Cause is defined and agreed upon, then the end and all goals are clear and absolute.

I wonder however, if it is worthwhile to consider whether the ends (achievement of all goals of the Macedonian Cause) justifies any and all means, even those that are most extreme?

In a completely far-fetched hypothetical scenario, in an attempt to realise the goals of the Macedonian Cause, someone may destroy the world killing all people except the Macedonians. Consider NAZI Germany.

Is this acceptable? I would hope most agree it is not.

Yes it may be far-fetched, but the definition of the Macedonian Cause must be flawless for every possible scenario now and into the future.


I definitely do not want to put any bounds and limits to any methods that anyone would use to achieve the goals of the Macedonian Cause, however I do think that there should be something in there that would say any adherents to the Macedonian Cause must be 'good' people, in whatever way that is defined - or at least not do unto the others that which we do not want done to the Macedonians.

Or is that going too far and becoming almost a religious thing with 'commandments' etc?

It's worth discussion, I think.

[Buktop]

Buktop, what's with you UMD supporters and your penchant for all things ambiguous?

Phoenix, why are you generalizing all UMD supporters while you are crying that Maknews is generalizing all Australians?

Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

[Buktop]

Each individual, organisation, institution or Government should be left to their own devices and methods for achieving the goals defined in the Macedonian Cause. So long as the Macedonian Cause is defined and agreed upon, then the end and all goals are clear and absolute.

I wonder however, if it is worthwhile to consider whether the ends (achievement of all goals of the Macedonian Cause) justifies any and all means, even those that are most extreme?

In a completely far-fetched hypothetical scenario, in an attempt to realise the goals of the Macedonian Cause, someone may destroy the world killing all people except the Macedonians. Consider NAZI Germany.

Is this acceptable? I would hope most agree it is not.

Yes it may be far-fetched, but the definition of the Macedonian Cause must be flawless for every possible scenario now and into the future.


I definitely do not want to put any bounds and limits to any methods that anyone would use to achieve the goals of the Macedonian Cause, however I do think that there should be something in there that would say any adherents to the Macedonian Cause must be 'good' people, in whatever way that is defined - or at least not do unto the others that which we do not want done to the Macedonians.

Or is that going too far and becoming almost a religious thing with 'commandments' etc?

It's worth discussion, I think.

I agree Rogi, it is a very difficult subject to discuss as there are so many variations and approaches to achievement. I don't think that we should limit the approaches necessarily, but maybe we should outline where the approaches can be detrimental, or where action can cross the line.

[Rogi]

On that note, it may be useful to include something to forbid any individual or group to do anything that is detrimental to the work of any other group that works for the Macedonian cause.

There is nobody who can say that anyone's strategy is the Right way. Only in time can that become clear. But, in that time, no Macedonian group or individual working for the Macedonian Cause (having adopted it as its policy and goals) should undo any of the work of any other individual or group.

In a hypothetical scenario, if a more radical group was to be established in the Aegean part of Macedonia perhaps in the way the UCK/KLA did in Kosovo and Macedonia - then no group should undo their work and denounce them, etc or it will hurt the entire cause, rather each group could do its part to ensure the Macedonian Cause is furthered and not hurt (perhaps in the way that all Albanian groups around the world pushed the 'human rights' PR while UCK/KLA were killing people). See Filip Petrovski's "Ramkoven Dogovor" blog post (http://filippetrovski.blog.com.mk/node/175223)



Perhaps something that says,

The unreserved mutual respect and understanding between all adherents of the Macedonian Cause; an understanding of the many varying plans, strategies, methods and actions to achieve the goals defined by the Macedonian Cause and no such adherent will act in any manner detrimental to the efforts of another.

[Buktop]

On that note, it may be useful to include something to forbid any individual or group to do anything that is detrimental to the work of any other group that works for the Macedonian cause.

There is nobody who can say that anyone's strategy is the Right way. Only in time can that become clear. But, in that time, no Macedonian group or individual working for the Macedonian Cause (having adopted it as its policy and goals) should undo any of the work of any other individual or group.

In a hypothetical scenario, if a more radical group was to be established in the Aegean part of Macedonia perhaps in the way the UCK/KLA did in Kosovo and Macedonia - then no group should undo their work and denounce them, etc or it will hurt the entire cause, rather each group could do its part to ensure the Macedonian Cause is furthered and not hurt (perhaps in the way that all Albanian groups around the world pushed the 'human rights' PR while UCK/KLA were killing people). See Filip Petrovski's "Ramkoven Dogovor" blog post (http://filippetrovski.blog.com.mk/node/175223)



Perhaps something that says,

The unreserved mutual respect and understanding between all adherents of the Macedonian Cause; an understanding of the many varying plans, strategies, methods and actions to achieve the goals defined by the Macedonian Cause and no such adherent will act in any manner detrimental to the efforts of another.

I like it, excellent post Rogi!

[Risto the Great]

In a completely far-fetched hypothetical scenario, in an attempt to realise the goals of the Macedonian Cause, someone may destroy the world killing all people except the Macedonians. Consider NAZI Germany.

Is this acceptable? I would hope most agree it is not.

Rogi, the following text was already included by you:

The full and unreserved respect of, and the support for, the Rights of all people of non-Macedonian descent living in Macedonia and around the world, who share a reciprocal full and unreserved respect for the Macedonian people, their homeland and their state.

I think this is more than adequate and places limitations on how non-Macedonians need to be treated. Admittedly it does not compel us to be nice to people who do not respect Macedonians, but maybe it is time for this.

The unreserved mutual respect and understanding between all adherents of the Macedonian Cause; an understanding of the many varying plans, strategies, methods and actions to achieve the goals defined by the Macedonian Cause and no such adherent will act in any manner detrimental to the efforts of another.

In some instances, it might pay to be reserved. I am thinking about Sinn Fein's political arm who are quite reserved about their more militant affiliated groups.

I don't know if the Cause can ensure an understanding of the many plans etc, however, it can encourage to seek an understanding. Hence a slight re-wording:

The mutual respect between all adherents of the Macedonian Cause; a desire to be aware of the many varying plans, strategies, methods and actions to achieve the goals defined by the Macedonian Cause and all adherents to seek to develop a synergistic approach to the efforts of one another.

As an example, we have seen opposing camps with Vinozito and Vodenka's activities. Both believe they are doing the right thing. Both are detrimental to each other. Both appear to be following the Macedonian Cause. It will always cause splinters. Yet both are encouraging more positive action in Egej. We can't insist one adherent defers to another simply because they had the idea first.

[TajnataKniga]

excellent document! when do the edits stop and the document moves forward and gets endorsed by others outside of MTO forum?

[Risto the Great]

Hi TK, I think it still needs a fair bit of work.
But is getting much closer.
I would hope the edits never stop because it would suggest the Cause would be unable to embrace changed circumstances.

[Silver]

Hello Friends,

I just wanted to jump in here to say I support what's being derived here and am proud of the work being done by all those involved. I support the document as written in principal feeling that it reflects my thoughts and feelings as a Macedonian who's hopeful that someday we will finally achieve the basic human rights that we desire and deserve as a people who have suffered and are still suffering to this day and in this age in the modern Europe.

I do however want to offer an opinion regarding our identity. Perhaps in the opening lines of the document before the cause is actually spelled out we can indicate in some clear way that Macedonians are a unique ethnic identity living among the diverse ethno-cultural and national identities throughout the balkans and are neither 'Greek', 'Serbian' nor 'Bulgarian'. It can go on to say something like 'heretofore referred to simply as Macedonians'. I think this is important to add because this way we'll have a buffer and an answer to the 'new Greek' false identity of the 'Greek Macedonian' and to shield our cause against any cunning 'Bulgarian' operatives whose tactics are to show up as 'patriotic' Macedonians but at the end of the day and in the long run will subvert the cause and claim a Macedonian is ethnically 'Bulgarian'.

Pozdravi Makedonchina,

Silver

[Alpha]

One should be carefull to not discriminate against macedonians that do not speak a slavic language though.

[Daskalot]

One should be carefull to not discriminate against macedonians that do not speak a slavic language though.

Macedonians who do not speak a Slavic language, you say.... you mean Macedonians who do not speak Macedonian? What kind of Macedonians are they? Diaspora Macedonians of X generation? Or?

[Daskalot]

Hello Friends,

I just wanted to jump in here to say I support what's being derived here and am proud of the work being done by all those involved. I support the document as written in principal feeling that it reflects my thoughts and feelings as a Macedonian who's hopeful that someday we will finally achieve the basic human rights that we desire and deserve as a people who have suffered and are still suffering to this day and in this age in the modern Europe.

I do however want to offer an opinion regarding our identity. Perhaps in the opening lines of the document before the cause is actually spelled out we can indicate in some clear way that Macedonians are a unique ethnic identity living among the diverse ethno-cultural and national identities throughout the balkans and are neither 'Greek', 'Serbian' nor 'Bulgarian'. It can go on to say something like 'heretofore referred to simply as Macedonians'. I think this is important to add because this way we'll have a buffer and an answer to the 'new Greek' false identity of the 'Greek Macedonian' and to shield our cause against any cunning 'Bulgarian' operatives whose tactics are to show up as 'patriotic' Macedonians but at the end of the day and in the long run will subvert the cause and claim a Macedonian is ethnically 'Bulgarian'.

Pozdravi Makedonchina,

Silver

Good suggestions Silver and Welcome to the MTO!

[Risto the Great]

One should be carefull to not discriminate against macedonians that do not speak a slavic language though.

Absolutely incorrect.
This is a Macedonian Cause. The word "Macedonian" has a very clear meaning. If you wish to have a "Pan-Macedonian Cause" or a "Greek Macedonian Cause" that is your prerogative. It is of no relevance to Macedonians.

As Daskalot mentioned, it is a Macedonian language. Saying anything else is a gross violation of human rights. We have court cases to prove this.