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[Bill77]

Im a racist pig ? LOL ! where did you see anything i posted so far that has warranted this attack on me ?

Lets use your example: Mexicans have spanish ancestry from the conquistadors FACT. Brazilians have portugese and other european ancestry FACT. Anyway, you saying that language doesnt have anything to do with who you are is an exception to the rule. Not the rule itself. Espescially for northern slavs as myself. Macedonians such as yourself may not want to have anything to do with slavs by association. But thats YOUR problem..not mine.

Even serbs celebrate SLAVA...but what would you know about that anyway....

You always refer us to slavs and we are well aware why you and the rest of Greeks do this. To get rid of Macedonian purity as a race in your own twisted mind. You are a racist pig. You don't have to believe it because your brainwashed mind is to far gone. The least you can do is show us respect and call us Macedonians just like we call you Greek which you are not. Or do you want us to call you Albanian Greek?

I said language used by people does not by itself identify their ethnicity. what exception do you think i am trying to make. And what is slav. You use it like its an ethnic Group. Read this thread if you want to learn something i am not whaisting my time with you on this matter.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1947&page=3

And us being pure Macedonian and not this created word slav, is your problem pal otherwise you would not be here wrecking your pea brain over it. Why do you give a shit if we claim macedonian Purity.

[chicagoan]

find me one instance where I SAID YOU WERE SLAVS...FIND ME ONE... BILL.

and yes...Slav is an ethnic group that defines many nationalities in NE Europe. Go to a god damn polish or ukranian forum and ask them yourself if you think im the only one.

Hell, ask a serb if you want.

[TrueMacedonian]

i speak a language that has been spoken by my ancestors. That in itself is way more than most other nationalities can claim.

Greeks, Chinese, Native Amercians, Persians ( i think ) and some Arameins in Jordan still speak the same language of their ancestors.

You can start with that...

Your pretended ancestors would most likely have an extremely hard time understanding you be sure of that. As for your true ancestors they wouldn't even know what the hell you're speaking. And as for evading SoM's first post why don't you answer it? Why are you sliming around the most obvious reason for the existance of this thread?

[chicagoan]

I already answered the question when joining the forum. Im not avoiding anything...in fact if you have read my other posts you would of seen that i used " macedonians " a number of times. You repeatingly asking me to do it again is offensive. What is this..the gestapo ?

my pretended ancestors ? Dude, just because your jealous doesnt mean you have to harp on my ethnos. If you think your pure bred...then you are definitly more deluded than any greek will ever be. If we are mixed..so are you X 100

[TrueMacedonian]

Chica you haven't answered SoM's first post. You are sliming away from it avoiding the question which will lead to the obvious. You guys must be bored over 'there' seeing as nothing new is happening with that craphole.

my pretended ancestors ? Dude, just because your jealous doesnt mean you have to harp on my ethnos. If you think your pure bred...then you are definitly more deluded than any greek will ever be. If we are mixed..so are you X 100

Ethnos? What ethnos 'dude'? Your ArvanitoSlavoVlach ethnos? As for Macedonians being 'mixed' no one ever said that we were pure. As for being jealous chica now that's a good one. Jelous of what? A bunch of phoneys

[Bill77]

To answer your question..that term barbarian was used IMO as a political insult. Just like if I was to call GW Bush a clown. Doesnt mean he really is bozo the clown. Just so you know for each cherry picking sentence you can find to re-inforce the ancient macedonians continuity as non-greeks...I can find another thousand that support the greek thesis. But then that would be " racist " wouldnt it ?

Your whole discussion has to do with trying to insinuate we are slavs, and guess where thats going to head next. Its your propaganda tool is'nt it.

But i want to talk about this funny post.

your opinion is nothing but an excuse to cover up for what is the most damaging to the belief that Ancient Macedonian were Greeks . And Your opinion is that it was a political insult? if you think Barbarian was used as a rhetorical slant or some meaning that who ever were labeled Barbarians are some kind of backward Greeks in an intellectual sense, Then you are realy ignorant.

lets first look at the meaning Barbarian so you don't spin more shit,
: The term originates in the ancient Greek civilization, meaning "anyone who is not Greek". Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations. Greek word βάρβαρος (bárbaros). The word is onomatopoeic, the bar-bar representing the impression of random hubbub produced by hearing a spoken language that one cannot understand, similar to blah blah, babble The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Egyptians, Persians, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, and Carthaginians.

Macedonians were Barbarians or Philhelene quotes We know for a fact that the ancient Greeks stereotyped and called all non-Greeks barbarians. These included the Persians, the Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, etc.

Now, Barbarian is used in its Hellenic sense by St. Paul in the New Testament (Romans 1:14) to describe non-Greeks, and to describe one who merely speaks a different language (1 Corinthians 14:11). The word is not used in these scriptures in the modern sense of "savage" or what you claim "political insult" So are you saying that St Paul spread the Gospel in a rhetorical slant?

We know for a fact that the ancient Greeks also called the Persians barbarians. Are we suppose to say now, based on the modern Greek "logic", that the Persians were too a Greek tribe, but they were called non-Greeks only in "rhetorical context"?

Thinking That Barbarian was ment as a rhetorical context in the ancient times is quite frankly ridiculous.

You must be a student of The modern Greek writer Daskalakis who's logic is laughable.

[chicagoan]

well the slav part is right...for me at least What happened ?...i thought we were only a " linguistic " group.. lol.

I find it espescially funny how you ppl keep saying we have nothing to do with greeks of antiquity yet you somehow manage to keep a connection to the macedonian TRIBES of a specific area of Greece and balkans.

Its like me saying i belong to Spartans of Lakonia..LOL ! Give it a rest man...

and one more thing before I leave, My intentions were not bad in any way. Nor did I ever slander you guys. But this constant ball busting is showing how far off the deep end you ppl are. Good luck man...and i invite any of you guys to come to greece for vacation. Talk macedonian and even tell them your macedonian. Not only will nothing happen to you guys, but you might just be treated with kindness and hospitality.

One thing is for sure...you wont be executed..lol. Give your hate a rest and get your head out of your asses...espescially you diaspora ppl that have better lives than your countrymen right now.

Laters...

[Bill77]

well the slav part is right...for me at least What happened ?...i thought we were only a " linguistic " group.. lol.

I find it espescially funny how you ppl keep saying we have nothing to do with greeks of antiquity yet you somehow manage to keep a connection to the macedonian TRIBES of a specific area of Greece and balkans.

Its like me saying i belong to Spartans of Lakonia..LOL ! Give it a rest man...

and one more thing before I leave, My intentions were not bad in any way. Nor did I ever slander you guys. But this constant ball busting is showing how far off the deep end you ppl are. Good luck man...and i invite any of you guys to come to greece for vacation. Talk macedonian and even tell them your macedonian. Not only will nothing happen to you guys, but you might just be treated with kindness and hospitality.

One thing is for sure...you wont be executed..lol. Give your hate a rest and get your head out of your asses...espescially you diaspora ppl that have better lives than your countrymen right now.

Laters...

Love to visit but ask the natzis at the border why they will not alow me.

And why are you taking off? can't handle the heat? you talk full of shit and when logic is put towards you, you drift away. You are pathetic.

[chicagoan]

Your whole discussion has to do with trying to insinuate we are slavs, and guess where thats going to head next. Its your propaganda tool is'nt it.

But i want to talk about this funny post.

your opinion is nothing but an excuse to cover up for what is the most damaging to the belief that Ancient Macedonian were Greeks . And Your opinion is that it was a political insult? if you think Barbarian was used as a rhetorical slant or some meaning that who ever were labeled Barbarians are some kind of backward Greeks in an intellectual sense, Then you are realy ignorant.

lets first look at the meaning Barbarian so you don't spin more shit,
: The term originates in the ancient Greek civilization, meaning "anyone who is not Greek". Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations. Greek word βάρβαρος (bárbaros). The word is onomatopoeic, the bar-bar representing the impression of random hubbub produced by hearing a spoken language that one cannot understand, similar to blah blah, babble The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Egyptians, Persians, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, and Carthaginians.

Macedonians were Barbarians or Philhelene quotes We know for a fact that the ancient Greeks stereotyped and called all non-Greeks barbarians. These included the Persians, the Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, etc.

Now, Barbarian is used in its Hellenic sense by St. Paul in the New Testament (Romans 1:14) to describe non-Greeks, and to describe one who merely speaks a different language (1 Corinthians 14:11). The word is not used in these scriptures in the modern sense of "savage" or what you claim "political insult" So are you saying that St Paul spread the Gospel in a rhetorical slant?

We know for a fact that the ancient Greeks also called the Persians barbarians. Are we suppose to say now, based on the modern Greek "logic", that the Persians were too a Greek tribe, but they were called non-Greeks only in "rhetorical context"?

Thinking That Barbarian was ment as a rhetorical context in the ancient times is quite frankly ridiculous.

You must be a student of The modern Greek writer Daskalakis who's logic is laughable.

hey Bill...first off you dont have to tell me what barbaros mean. I know..thanks anyway.

and lastly macedonians also competed in the olympics. which is a FACT
That being said, i never said you guys werent macedonians either.

take care man...and chill out

[chicagoan]

Love to visit but ask the natzis at the border why they will not alow me.

I call bullshit on that. You can come anytime.

[Bill77]

hey Bill...first off you dont have to tell me what barbaros mean. I know..thanks anyway.

and lastly macedonians also competed in the olympics. which is a FACT
That being said, i never said you guys werent macedonians either.

take care man...and chill out

I think you have a short memory. i could have sworn you said Barbarian meant something diferant.

Regarding Macedonians competing, lets talk about that and clear facts.

following Herodotus--the stade- race competitors at Olympia thought the Macedonian was a foreigner (Hdt. 5.22: barbaros) Second, for his effort on behalf of the Greek cause against the Persians Alexander is known as "Philhellene". Now this is kind of odd to call a Greek a "friend of the Greeks". "This title is normally reserved for non-Greeks".

Peter Green - Classical Bearings p.157
Alexander was thus adjudged a Greek---against angry opposition, be it noted, from the stewards of the Games

Ernst Badian - Studies in the History of Art Vol 10: Macedonia and Greece in Late Classical Early Hellenistic Times:
"We have no way of judging the authenticity of either the claim or the evidence that went with it, but it is clear that at the time the decision was not easy. There were outraged protests from the other competitors, who rejected Alexander I as a barbarian--which proves, at least, that the Temenid descent and the royal genealogy had hitherto been an isoteric item of knowledge
Badian sums it up:"As a matter of fact, there is reason to think that at least some even among Alexander I's friends and supporters had regarded the Olympic decision as political rather than factual--as a reward for services to the Hellenic cause rather than as prompted by genuine belief in the evidence he had adduced. We find him described in the lexicographers, who go back to fourth-century sources, as "Philhellene",--surely not an appellation that could be given to an actual Greek."

fact that even when they were finally permitted to compete in the Olympic games, they could so only as ‘Heraklides’, ie; descendants of Herakles, and not as Macedonians. It would only be several years later that the Macedonian nobility were allowed to partake in the Olympic games, after which the Romans, another non-Greek people, also joined in participation.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2009/05/05/pausanias-description-of-greece-2nd-century-ad/

i supose you got to leave now.

[chicagoan]

I just want to answer your post.
I stand on what I said earlier. My OPINION on the usage of the term barabaros at the time was used as an insult and not literally.
I also believe that macedonians of antiquity were greek or fully hellenized. That being said AGAIN...does not mean I am taking anything away from you guys. I believe this heritage can be shared by both ppl and whoever for that matter that wants to identify themselves as such.

I noticed you quoting Herodotus and other scholars. We can do this all day and neither one of us would change our opinion of each other. Its been done to death...The horse is beaten, dead and eaten and ppl are still trying to take contexts from scholars to justify their positions. I really would like for you to visit Greece with an open mind and see Pella, Dion, ect and get a real feel of what its like to be standing there. I beleive you guys that when you say you are from an indeginous backgound in the balkans with a slavic language. Thats OK with me personally. I also believe bulgarians are from thracian background as well and albanians illyrian background. I think the balkans is big enough for everyone and its time we bury the hatchet.

anyway..no hard feelings.

[Bill77]

I just want to answer your post.
I stand on what I said earlier. My OPINION on the usage of the term barabaros at the time was used as an insult and not literally.
I also believe that macedonians of antiquity were greek or fully hellenized. That being said AGAIN...does not mean I am taking anything away from you guys. I believe this heritage can be shared by both ppl and whoever for that matter that wants to identify themselves as such.

I noticed you quoting Herodotus and other scholars. We can do this all day and neither one of us would change our opinion of each other. Its been done to death...The horse is beaten, dead and eaten and ppl are still trying to take contexts from scholars to justify their positions. I really would like for you to visit Greece with an open mind and see Pella, Dion, ect and get a real feel of what its like to be standing there. I beleive you guys that when you say you are from an indeginous backgound in the balkans with a slavic language. Thats OK with me personally. I also believe bulgarians are from thracian background as well and albanians illyrian background. I think the balkans is big enough for everyone and its time we bury the hatchet.

anyway..no hard feelings.

Its cool.

But i must have the last say

There was many constant wars between the Greek states. Yet no Spartan, Athenian, Theban, Epirote, was ever called non-Greek or barbarian during any of these political and war conflicts! Not ONCE! surly there would have been just one ocation where an "insult" as you put it would have been made. But your explanation is simply not true.

[Risto the Great]

I think I read somewhere that Spartans were described as barbarians.
But to compare them with the Macedonians is ludicrous and the debate over the "questionable" ethnicity of Macedonians from 2000 years ago continues. The fact that the 2000 year old Macedonian ethnicity is questionable (by educated historians) is evidence enough that they can not be grouped with the others that are un-questionable.

[Bill77]

I think I read somewhere that Spartans were described as barbarians.
But to compare them with the Macedonians is ludicrous and the debate over the "questionable" ethnicity of Macedonians from 2000 years ago continues. The fact that the 2000 year old Macedonian ethnicity is questionable (by educated historians) is evidence enough that they can not be grouped with the others that are un-questionable.

Posibly Risto, i realy don't want to dwell to much on this subject but i quickly did a search Re Spartans were described as Barbarians. I came across .docstoc "The Spartan Code" http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6080981/The-Spartan-Code, this explanation but no referances are suplied.

Quote:
"The boys were taught reading and writing barely enough to make them literate. Books were not in evidence...." "Obviously, Other Greeks considered Spartans Barbarians"

There is a Hint of a rhetorical slant here Because obviously Spartans spoke a Hellenic dialect. But acording to this Document on ".docstoc", be it an insult (as chic wish's to believe), The bases of this insult has again got to do with language/Iliteracy can't read or write. Like saying to the Spartans 'you are just like the Macedonians or Persians Barbarians' as an insult.

But i will like to finish post and subject with Demosthenes Greek Orator, For any future Greek that visits this site.

""... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. "

Now if Modern Greeks know some History about Demosthenes, They will realise Demosthenes' well-known statements; for Isocrates himself, the very man who heralds the idea of Macedonian leadership in Hellas, designates the people of Macedonia as members of an alien race in Phil.108. Demosthenes was twice appointed to lead the war effort of Athens against Macedonia. 'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by errecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216] Plutarch

I Briefly explained who Demosthenes was so Greeks don't label him as a propagandist from Skopje

THE END.