Can someone please answer the question?

[Daskalot]

Petros all of your argumentation is heavily based on Wikipedia, you are aware of the fact that no institution of higher learning in the world will accept Wikipedia as a source, so why spam our forum with links and full or partial quotes from that site?

[Petros Houhoulis]

And we are waiting for someone to tell us how the Minor asia people suddenly became this so called Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#Greek_colonies_.28apoikiai.29

"In Ancient Greece, colonies were sometimes founded by vanquished peoples, who left their homes to escape subjection at the hand of a foreign enemy; sometimes as a sequel to civil disorders, when the losers in internecine battles left to form a new city elsewhere; sometimes to get rid of surplus population, and thereby to avoid internal convulsions. But in most cases the motivation was to establish and facilitate relations of trade with foreign countries and further the wealth of the mother-city (in Greek, metropolis).

Several city-states (more than thirty) of ancient Greece had multiple colonies of settlement throughout the Mediterranean world, with the most active being Miletus, with ninety colonies stretching throughout the Mediterranean Sea, from the shores of the Black Sea and Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the east, to the southern coast of the Iberian Peninsula in the west, as well as several colonies on the northern coast of Africa with the overall sum[citation needed] being 1500 from the late ninth, up to the 5th century BC.

There were two similar kinds of colonies, apoikiai and emporia. The first were city-states on their own; the second were Greek trading-colonies.

The Greek city-states began establishing colonies around 800 BC, at Al Mina on the coast of Syria and the Greek emporium Pithekoussai at Ischia in the Bay of Naples, both established about 800 BCE.

Two flushes of new colonists set out from Greece at the transition between the "Dark Ages" and the start of the Archaic Period, one in the early 8th century BC and a second burst of the colonizing spirit in the sixth century. Population growth and cramped spaces at home seem an insufficient explanation, while the economical and political dynamics produced by the competitive spirit between the frequently kingless, newly introduced concept of the Greek city-states, striving to expand their sphere of economical influence better fits as their true incentive. Through this Greek expansion the use of coins flourished throughout the Mediterranean Basin.

Influential Greek colonies in the western Mediterranean included Cyme (Aeolis), Rhegium (Rhegion) by Chalcis and Zankle (ca eighth century), Syracuse by Corinth/Tenea (ca 734 BC), Naxos by Chalkis (ca.734 BCE), Massalia (France) by Phokaia (ca.598 BCE), Agathe (France) by Phokaia (shortly after Massalia), Elea (Velia) by Phokaia and Massalia (ca.540 BC), Emporion (Spain) by Phokaia/Massalia (early 6th century), Antipolis (France) by Achaea, Alalia (Corsica) by Phokaia/Massalia (c.545BCE) and Cyrene (North Africa) by Thera (762/61 and 632/31 BCE)[1]

Several formulae were generally adhered to on the solemn and sacred occasions when a new colony set forth. If a Greek city was sending out a colony, an oracle, especially one such as the Oracle of Delphi, was almost invariably consulted beforehand. Sometimes certain classes of citizens were called upon to take part in the enterprises; sometimes one son was chosen by lot from every house where there were several sons; and strangers expressing a desire to join were admitted. A person of distinction was selected to guide the emigrants and make the necessary arrangements. It was usual to honor these founders of colonies, after their death, as heroes. Some of the sacred fire was taken from the public hearth in the Prytaneum, from which the fire on the public hearth of the new city was kindled. And, just as each individual had his private shrines, so the new community maintained the worship of its chief domestic deities, the colony sending embassies and votive gifts to the mother-city's principal festivals for centuries afterwards.

The relation between colony and mother-city, known literally as the metropolis, was viewed as one of mutual affection. Any differences that arose were made up, if possible, by peaceful means, war being deemed excusable only in cases of extreme necessity. The charter of foundation contained general provisions for the arrangement of the affairs of the colony, and also some special enactments. The constitution of the mother-city was usually adopted by the colony, but the new city remained politically independent. If the colony sent out a fresh colony on its own account, the mother-city was generally consulted, or was at least requested to furnish a leader. Frequently the colonies declaring their commitment to the various metropolitic alliances formed in the Greek mainland and for religious reasons would pay tribute in religious centres, like Delphi, Olympia or Delos [1]. It is worth noting that the Peloponnesian War was in part a result of a dispute between Corinth and her colony of Corcyra (Corfu). The cleruchs, known in Greek as the klęrouchoi, formed a special class of Greek colonists. The trade factories set up in foreign countries, such as Egypt, were somewhat different from the ordinary colonies, the members retaining the right of domicile in their own fatherland and confining themselves to their own quarter in the foreign city."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/AntikeGriechen1.jpg

[Daskalot]

Are you sure?

Let's check the facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Ottoman_census_of_Hilmi_Pasha_for_the_region_of_Macedonia_.281906.29

[edit] Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha for the region of Macedonia (1906)
Muslims (Turks and Albanians) 423,000 (41.71%)
Greeks 259,000 (27.30%)
Bulgarians 178,000 (18.81%)
Serbs 13,150 (1.39%)
Others 73,000 (7.72%)

No matter how you read or interpert the facts, the relative majority were the Muslims. The situation changed because of the population exchanges when the Muslims left for Turkey - no doubt about it - but still, this majority that you speak of is imaginary by all means.

Himli Pashas census does not take into consideration peoples ethnicity, it only go after CHURCH AFFILIATION, this is a fact.

Those Greeks and Bulgarians are Macedonian belonging to the Greek Patriarchate or the Bulgarian Exarchate.

[Petros Houhoulis]

That's a load of baloney. Most Christian Asians spoke Turkish when they arrived on the shores of Europe.

They may have heard a Greek-speaking Orthodox priest talk but that is mostly as far as it got with the 'Hellenic' lingual knowledge.

The population exchange by the modern Turkish and Greek republics were based on RELIGION, not language.

Less than 10% of them were not speaking Greek. The most often quoted case, the Karamanlides, a Christian Turkish speaking people who used a Greek alphabet, accounted for 5 to 10% of the total number of those who emigrated to Greece because of the Lausanne treaty and the only ones to do so after 1922. As you can see below, they were less than 100,000 out of a total of less than 1,200,000 refugees.

You are making a huge fuss by describing the refugees as Turkish speaking *collectively* when in fact the Turkish speakers were a small minority, and they were expelled because Turkey insisted upon exchanges according to religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaman...in_and_history

"In the population exchanges that took place during the summer of 1924, Turkey and Greece agreed to transfer their minority populations based on religious background, rather than on ethnicity or language. With some exceptions, the Muslims of Greece (such as the Epirus and Cretan Turks) were deported to Turkey, while the Orthodox Christians were moved to Greece,including the Karamanli.N-[3] The total number of Karamanlides who were expelled from Turkey is difficult to ascertain, but estimates are that slightly under 100,000 Orthodox Christians were driven from Central and Southern Anatolia.[4] However, these may also have included Christians in the same geographical area who continued to speak the Greek language. N-[5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchang...#Displacements

"In Greece this was called the Asia Minor Catastrophe (Greek: Μικρασιατική καταστροφή). Significant refugee displacement and movement occurred in the upheaval following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and its evolution into modern Turkey, especially following the Balkan Wars, World War I, and the Greco-Turkish war (1919-1922), which was part of the Turkish War for Independence. These included exchanges and expulsion of about 100,000 Slavs and Bulgarians and 500,000 Turks from Greece.

The Treaty of Lausanne affected the populations as follows: almost all Greek Orthodox Christians (Greek- or Turkish-speaking) of Asia Minor including a Turkish-speaking Greek Orthodox population from middle Anatolia (Karamanlides), the Ionia region (e.g. Smyrna, Aivali), the Pontus region (e.g. Trapezunda, Sampsunta), Prusa (Bursa), the Bithynia region (e.g., Nicomedia (İzmit), Chalcedon (Kadıköy), East Thrace, and other regions were either expelled or formally denaturalized from Turkish territory, numbering up to 1.2 million people. About 500,000 people were expelled from Greece, predominantly Turks, but including other Muslims, Muslim Roma, Pomaks, Cham Albanians, and Megleno-Romanians."

[Petros Houhoulis]

If you speak Greek that makes you a Greek? I guess I'm an American.

No, but the opposite also holds true. Being Greek does not mean that you speak Greek.

In any case, the vast majority of the Greek speaking populations of Asia Minor had a Greek national conscience. (the terms Turkey and Anatolia were used only after 1923 by the Turks themselves)

[Daskalot]

Petros I am giving you a warning for spamming this forum with copy and paste text from wikipedia, NEXT TIME YOU DO THIS YOU WILL BE BANNED.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Perhaps they spoke Greek. I don't really know because unlike our Macedonian friends I have never been drawn by that subject since I only have a very slim interest in Greek history. However, the issue of them being populated in Macedonia at the expense of native Macedonians I do find more interesting.

This was not a Greek plot. Greece sent off 500.000 people but receivedd 1.200.000 people. It wasn't a good deal for Greece.

[Daskalot]

No, but the opposite also holds true. Being Greek does not mean that you speak Greek.

In any case, the vast majority of the Greek speaking populations of Asia Minor had a Greek national conscience. (the terms Turkey and Anatolia were used only after 1923 by the Turks themselves)

Please explain how they can have a Greek national conscious when they WERE not living in the Greek state and NEVER HAD UP UNTIL THE 1920S.

[Petros Houhoulis]

By the way, Coastal Christians from Asia were one part of a much larger contingent of Christians in Asia who were shipped off to Europe.

What was the exact figure, 1.700.000 Christians from Asia? How many were coastal?

The largest compact Turkish speaking population that left for Greece were less than 100,000. (see about the Karamanlides in previous posts) Do the maths yourself...

BTW. 1,200,000 were received by Greece. More than 500,000 perished in their way out. Almost none of those perished was speaking Turkish (The Karamanlides left peacefully after 1924)

[Daskalot]

This was not a Greek plot. Greece sent off 500.000 people but receivedd 1.200.000 people. It wasn't a good deal for Greece.

It was the perfect deal to colonize Macedonia and make it into the Hellenistic madhouse it is today, thank the Refugees from Asia minor for that. Wake up Petros, you are a bright and clever man, use your head.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Regarding this so-called 'proclamation' posted at the beginning of this thread, with its citation in a book that has a title which includes “Greece-Macedonia 4000 years”, I think the notion of it being dubious is well founded. However, even if it were authentic, during this period Macedonia was in constant turmoil and it remained so until the early 1880’s, I am sure there were a few groups trying to make efforts at liberation, even half-ass one’s like that.

Unlike the Kresna Uprising of the Macedonians during the same period, this so-called effort doesn’t live in the memory of the Greek people, does it? For, but 25 years later, these so-called ‘Greeks’ were nowhere to be seen, and the ‘great’ fighters of the Greek efforts to absorb Macedonia, these so-called “Macedonian Fighters”, were nearly all to a tee from outside of Macedonia.

Contrary to your opinion, the memory of the Greek uprisings in Macedonia has lived in the memory of the Greek people. Otherwise, this would not have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouil_Pappas

"Emmanouil Pappas (Greek: Εμμανουήλ Παππάς) is a municipality in the Serres Prefecture, Greece. Population 11,789 (2001). The seat of the municipality is in Chryso. The municipality takes its name after a local historical figure who played an important part as a leader in the war of the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule. Sadly, he met his demise before freedom was attained. Emmanouel Pappas was born in the village that was previously called 'Dovista', probably of Slavic origin, though historians are uncertain of the exact root of that word. One conjecture involves the mispronunciation of the Latin 'Dove est', meaning 'where is it?', because, apparently, the village was undetectable from a distance."

Of course we had many uprisings and wars over the centuries and only two of them are celebrated in all of Greece: The war of 1821 against the Ottoman empire and the war of 1941 with Fascist Italy.

[Daskalot]

Contrary to your opinion, the memory of the Greek uprisings in Macedonia has lived in the memory of the Greek people. Otherwise, this would not have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouil_Pappas

"Emmanouil Pappas (Greek: Εμμανουήλ Παππάς) is a municipality in the Serres Prefecture, Greece. Population 11,789 (2001). The seat of the municipality is in Chryso. The municipality takes its name after a local historical figure who played an important part as a leader in the war of the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule. Sadly, he met his demise before freedom was attained. Emmanouel Pappas was born in the village that was previously called 'Dovista', probably of Slavic origin, though historians are uncertain of the exact root of that word. One conjecture involves the mispronunciation of the Latin 'Dove est', meaning 'where is it?', because, apparently, the village was undetectable from a distance."

Of course we had many uprisings and wars over the centuries and only two of them are celebrated in all of Greece: The war of 1821 against the Ottoman empire and the war of 1941 with Fascist Italy.

Petros, I see that you have a hard time reading and understanding the warning I gave you a few posts ago.
You do it again, thus you will be Banned, thank you for gracing us with your short lived presence on our forum.

[Delodephius]

Daskalot, just don't have second thoughts, please.

[Daskalot]

Daskalot, just don't have second thoughts, please.

Thank you for your input Slovak.

[El Bre]

@Svoliani

I don't have a lot of time to devote to your "Greek speaking" crock o' shit, but lets look at the Grevena area as an example.

A closer look at the the ethinc composition of the Grevena area reveals that the low foothills of the Pindos, directly opposite the Town of Grevena, were inhabited by the Greek speaking Kupatshari, who were not of Greek but Vlach origin. The Greek speaking Kupatshari, who are referred to as "Greeks" were not hellenized until the early 1800's.

Further north of the Kupatshari lived 12,000 Vlacho-Turkish Valahades, who spoke Greek until 1924 when they left for Turkey. They were islamized Vlachs, who had previously, together with the Kupashari, Embraced Greek culture by way of religion. Religion played a major role in the process of Hellinisation, for church services were always conducted in Greek. The Patriarch of Constantinople forbade the use of Vlach in Religious services.

Moving towards the eastern part of the Grevena area, we meet the Vlachs of Vlahoklissoura group, who lived in Vlahoklissaoura, Vlatsi, Sissani and Siatitsa. These Vlachs abandoned the nomadic life very early on and embraced Greek culture to the point where many modern natives Siatitsa have no idea of their Vlach origins.

The rest of the inhbitants of the Kaza, or district of Grevena were "Greeks". In 1895, it had about 37,500 inhabitants, of whom 12,500 were Vlachs, 10;000 Turks, and 15,000 Greeks. As far as the Greeks of Grevena are concerned, most of the them were Kupatshari or Hassiots. The ethnic origin of the Kupatshari is well known; that of the Hassiots, however, has not been scientifically established. The Hassiots worked as bondsman on Turkish estates, and their cultural level was particularly low. Weigand mantians that the Hassiots were of Vlach origin.

As for the Grevena Turks, they included, apart from the Valahades, some of the Turkish inhabitants of the the Town of Grevena, who had come from lala in the Pelopenese. The Laliots had setteled in the area in 1837. They were not in fact Turks, but Albanians, led by Ali Farmaki.

Judging by your alias, I assume you are from Kozani. What do we know about Kozani?

In the nineteenth century, the Kozani area was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost exclusively Hellanised Vlachs.

Now, if I had either the time or the inclination, I could deconstruct your Hellenic fantasy regarding most of the other areas you mention. That being said, I do not deny, as others have benevolently stated, pockets of Greeks (whatever that means) in Macedonia.