Regime Change: Will Macedonia be Removed from the Map in 2018?

[Starling]

Pelagonija, stop being an ass.

Starling, Macedonia was kept alive by the diaspora. In its darkest times, we were fierce. When they were ready to be a Southern Slav brotherhood, we reminded them again and again of what they were.

We made it easy for them to be Macedonians.

Now we can't do much for them unless they make us their proxy voters. We won't really influence them in English.

We won't influence them in macedonian either if they know we're from the diaspora. So, after many years of activism, I painfully acknowledge we are of little use.

But I would like to orchestrate a few airplane leaflet drops before I go.

We can at the very least keep attacking the propaganda and fight back against appropriation. I don't know how it is in other diaspora communities but my dad was a bit late to appreciate his heritage so I've mostly had to learn about Macedonia on my own. If stuff like that becomes a common occurrence then it won't take many more generations before the cultural identity in the diaspora gets eroded away by assimilation as well. That should be something you don't feel useless about dealing with.

[Gocka]

I was just in Macedonia for many months and I didn't hear anyone even talk about them. I don't really know much about them. From the outside looking in, they look like neo nazi types but I could be wrong. Even if they are the real thing, the fact that no one takes any notice of them says it all.

Fill us in. Give us a synopsis of who MPZ is made up of, who is the leader, how and when did the party start, what is their platform.

There are many who think this way, but we are the minority, that's the problem. A sparkle of hope for us to organize ourselves and act together is the MPZ Tvrdokorni, about which I still haven't heard a word from any of you.

[Phoenix]

...Personally, I'm angry with Macedonians in Macedonia. My sons won't know of a homeland. I'm embarrassed to show that pathetic shit hole of a compromise as the place they can point to on a map and be proud of. I resent the Fyromians who are so smart that they let all of this happen. They do deserve this because they haven't fought for anything. I could go on

+1...

The decline has accelerated in the last 12 months...I'm convinced that we're well and truly fucked...too much damage has been done to turn things around.

[Phoenix]

I associate line cutting with absolute peasantry. You should visit China and see how you cope. I've literally picked up men and moved them out of my way. They still pretend nothing happened.

I mainly associate the orderly queue with Anglo countries and maybe some of the Northern European ones...for everywhere else, the concept is largely alien.

[Vangelovski]

+1...

The decline has accelerated in the last 12 months...I'm convinced that we're well and truly fucked...too much damage has been done to turn things around.

I don't think it matters how much damage is done. You could start from scratch and build something if the people were normal. We were f*cked from the start given the group we had to work with.

[Phoenix]

...One time I witnessed someone cut in a line at the motor vehicle department, literally every single person on the line starting yelling, soccer moms, grandmas, everyone. They didn't need someone to stand up for them.

That's the only peaceful solution to the problem...if nobody says anything then that becomes the norm...If one person says something, somebody should always be prepared to back him up, otherwise the message is meaningless...

[Phoenix]

I don't think it matters how much damage is done. You could start from scratch and build something if the people were normal. We were f*cked from the start given the group we had to work with.

There seems to be no viable force from either direction, devoid of strong leadership cascading downward, nor anything exciting fomenting at the grass roots...nation building depends on one or the other.

[Gocka]

This is the stage I'm at. I don't care what happens to FYROM at this stage. It isn't at 0 its negative, so starting from 0 is actually an improvement. A lot of the things you talked about all these years became much more clear to me recently. I don't think I met a normal person for 4 1/2 months. Instead of Turkish soap operas, they should have a therapist on TV for group therapy for the entire country.

I don't think it matters how much damage is done. You could start from scratch and build something if the people were normal. We were f*cked from the start given the group we had to work with.

These are things I took for granted, then while in Macedonia for so long, and really keeping my eyes open, it really stuck out to me that Macedonians are cowards. They will never make a stand without validation from others. Everyone is afraid to be the first one. Say what you want about American policy, but the everyday people you meet, are very morally grounded and see it as their duty to speak out when they see something wrong. It becomes a group effort, and they protect each other, even over petty things. Macedonians can't speak up even when their very livelihood is at stake. Like I said earlier, 15 freaking people are standing in a line cursing silently in their heads and not one has the guts to even politely take issue, it had to be my dumb ass to open my mouth, and still not 1 backed me.

That's the only peaceful solution to the problem...if nobody says anything then that becomes the norm...If one person says something, somebody should always be prepared to back him up, otherwise the message is meaningless...

Exactly, we are at the nation building stage with no force from any direction to actually make it happen. I also don't know if this is the right century for nation building, it may be too late for that at this stage.

There seems to be no viable force from either direction, devoid of strong leadership cascading downward, nor anything exciting fomenting at the grass roots...nation building depends on one or the other.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Personally, I'm angry with Macedonians in Macedonia. My sons won't know of a homeland. I'm embarrassed to show that pathetic shit hole of a compromise as the place they can point to on a map and be proud of. I resent the Fyromians who are so smart that they let all of this happen. They do deserve this because they haven't fought for anything. I could go on

+1...

The decline has accelerated in the last 12 months...I'm convinced that we're well and truly fucked...too much damage has been done to turn things around.

I don't think it matters how much damage is done. You could start from scratch and build something if the people were normal. We were f*cked from the start given the group we had to work with.

This is the stage I'm at. I don't care what happens to FYROM at this stage. It isn't at 0 its negative, so starting from 0 is actually an improvement. A lot of the things you talked about all these years became much more clear to me recently. I don't think I met a normal person for 4 1/2 months. Instead of Turkish soap operas, they should have a therapist on TV for group therapy for the entire country.

So does this indicate that division is the answer?, is it now time we begin to dissociate ourselves with what is essentially these new Europeans Slavs in order to try and save the Macedonian nation from extinction?, or do we still keep going on with the “we must stay united!, because united we can!” philosophy?, continuing to see this cluster fuck of a journey out to the end, and then contemplate what that means for us as individuals after they have taken the nose dive off the cliff?.

Who exactly do we need to keep supporting?,

who exactly should we stay united with?,

Is the feeling mutual?,

Do these people want to stay united with us?

Have these people’s actions conveyed that they want to stay united with us?, the diaspora?, the Macedonian’s in the occupied territories of Greece, Bulgaria, Albanian and Serbia?

It seems that we acknowledge that we can do little about the path the Republic has committed to taking now, but can we choose which path we take?, and if so, when will be the time to re-assess our own path and choose?, or are we essentially slaves to those in the Republic, our fates intertwined, doomed to plod along whilst shrugging our shoulders and saying, stupid cunts, oh well, what can you do, and follow them as they jump off that cliff, ultimately working out what that now means for us when we hit the bottom?

When do we need to take control of our own destiny?, or better yet, do we have the power to choose our own destiny?, one separate from FYROM?

Is our answer Unity?, or Division?

[Risto the Great]

Good question. Difficult on my phone whilst overseas. But want to talk about it more.

[Gocka]

You are asking all the questions I keep asking myself.

In my estimation, the division happened a long time ago. Once you leave the "homeland" even if it was only yesterday, you are no longer one of "them".

So does this indicate that division is the answer?, is it now time we begin to dissociate ourselves with what is essentially these new Europeans Slavs in order to try and save the Macedonian nation from extinction?, or do we still keep going on with the “we must stay united!, because united we can!” philosophy?, continuing to see this cluster fuck of a journey out to the end, and then contemplate what that means for us as individuals after they have taken the nose dive off the cliff?.

Precisely, what is left to support? Take en extended trip to Macedonia like Ii did, and eventually you throw your hands up and say "what the hell am I trying to save here?". There is not base to build from, absolutely none. We need to literally build the foundation from which we want to build everything else from. How can we build a foundation in what essentially amounts to a foreign country?

Who exactly do we need to keep supporting?,

They don't want to be untied with us, that is a fact. You either share in the collective misery, or you are a traitor.

who exactly should we stay united with?,

Is the feeling mutual?,

Do these people want to stay united with us?

The occupied territories were abandoned before we were born. The Diaspora since around independence.

Have these people’s actions conveyed that they want to stay united with us?, the diaspora?, the Macedonian’s in the occupied territories of Greece, Bulgaria, Albanian and Serbia?

For the foreseeable future, Macedonia, and Macedonianism will have to exists in the shadows. We need to start for scratch, we need to build a grass roots movement, most likely stating outside of FYROM. The foundation that we build has to be based on principles and morals. Then we that foundation is strong, you starting spreading it through Macedonia proper. Hopeful some time spent living under someone else's rule will help people realize why its important to have a state of your own.

It pains me to say, but there is nothing left in FYROM to save. In fact the failed experiment, in FYROM has done irreversible damage to our identity and future viability as a people. The faster it crumbles the faster we can start on the path to something better.

As it stands now, there is too much baggage associated with FYROM, its leadership, is only helping to further diminish our ethnic identity, the only way to stop that is for the state to dissolve so the ruling class has no power. It's the only way.

It seems that we acknowledge that we can do little about the path the Republic has committed to taking now, but can we choose which path we take?, and if so, when will be the time to re-assess our own path and choose?, or are we essentially slaves to those in the Republic, our fates intertwined, doomed to plod along whilst shrugging our shoulders and saying, stupid cunts, oh well, what can you do, and follow them as they jump off that cliff, ultimately working out what that now means for us when we hit the bottom?

When do we need to take control of our own destiny?, or better yet, do we have the power to choose our own destiny?, one separate from FYROM?

Is our answer Unity?, or Division?

[Pelagonija]

I dont believe there will be the possibility of a reset button.. we can not replicate the Balkans to 114 years earlier..

Look at the Macos in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania.. %90 assimulated.. same thing will happen in FYROM..

It's just to easy to walk away.. people will fight only if they have no other choice..

I look back at Georgievski.. we should have partition FYROM along ethnic lines.. now we will end up speaking Albanian in Gevgelija..

[Vangelovski]

I think ultimately, we'll go down with the ship. On the one hand, there is a clear divide between the Macedonians in Macedonia and the diaspora and its been that way for decades. On the other hand, our identity is inextricably linked. They say over there, 'we will always know who we are', but no one else will.

I think the fate of our identity is tied to that little shit hole, no matter what we do. Persia once changed its name to Iran, and officially the people and language are still known as Persian. But no one outside of their own community really knows that. To everyone else they're just Iranians. No matter how much you try to educate the wider world, they'll see that map and just call us X'ians.

Try explaining to someone that you're Macedonian when the whole world will be indoctrinated to think that is a Greek identity. Naturally, that conversation will lead into how and why its not a Greek identity, why the ethnonym doesn't match the name of the state, how it came to be that the name of the state was changed... and even I'm bored and have lost interest. A simple, "I'm Macedonian" will no longer suffice. Confusion will rein, and long-winded, emotionally-charged, awkward conversations will always follow. It will eventually be easier to just say I belong to a long-dead tribe, don't ask, I'm still mourning. If nothing else, we may be entitled to some form of community/cultural suffering leave from work (probably not Americans though - I hear you guys don't get work leave period).

[Rogi]

11 pages of posts to conclude that the Macedonian cultural attribute of "navednata glava" is detrimental to the ability to maintain a national statehood.

Perhaps from hereon in we discuss the solutions for the way forward before everyone continues down the path of throwing their hands up and giving up.

[Risto the Great]

Why not you first Rogi?