Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

[Poligiros]

Firstly I dont give a flying f@ck on who likes me or not.I am sure plenty of people will find reasons to hate a gay atheist guy who absolutely despises the national narratives and hates ideological conservatism that is propagated also through the celebration of made up nations.The neo-Greek nation being a prime example of this.


The debate is highly political not historical.It stems from the fact that Greece is negating Macedonia's narrative without looking first at the
If you live in Greece you already know that by now a good portion of the general population is sceptical about this bullshit historical entitlement.Slowly people are realising the crap of their national narrative and distance themselves.Th

So please m8 dont patronise me.My being here has nothing to do with how Macedonian users perceive me.It has only to do with my strong ideological stance that wants a secular, non nationalistic Greece which totally marginalises and renders you guys as pathetic as the ISIS Jihadists.

Hi Southern Neighbour,

I think I hit a nerve? I mentioned that I live in the diaspora therefore you probably don't value my opinion anyhow. Yes, local Hellenes including my first cousins don't generally care for the diaspora but I integrate and don't show off (except for the generous tips I leave), when I visit Greece. Our family home has been passed through generations in Chalkidiki for over 300 years.

My narrative comes from this forum publishing greater Macedonian maps of my native town, and am trying to determine if this is just a romantic dream or if they actually feel an empathy or connection to my home region and an ancient Macedonian settlement? And what that connection is? Do you feel as though your home town Serres belongs to the modern Greek state?

I also beg to differ about your views on ancient Hellenes. Its not about superiority, logical person agrees that the Balkans are mixed, but ancient indigenous tribes couldn't mysteriously vanish and not reproduce throughout the ages. As a result of concentrated ethnic cleansing, the Australian aboriginals still number around 300,000.

Sure, Hellenes or Romai have integrated with the predominant Greek and Byzantine tribes throughout the years but our link to the ancients can't be totally dismissed.

In addition, in fact the majority of Greek people I spoke to this year still have nationalistic views especially on the M issue, so I didn't experience "a large portion of Greeks who are distancing themselves from the historical narrative"..

As for your love of Syriza and leftist politics, the current centralist/right government seems to be steering the Hellenic economy into an economic recovery. I think an inexperienced leftist leader could damage the status quo and have an adverse affect. I doubt greater powers such as Germany would allow a leftist government to deviate from standard economic policy. In addition, voters who feel an affiliation with Syriza tend to be disillusioned with the same nepotistic parties and politicians.

Do you really believe a leftist Syriza government will bend over and recognize the RoMacedonia if they were in power? I bet you $1mill this wouldn't happen as it would be suicide for any party. Syriza politics and their popularity are exclusive of the M issue.

Best regards.

[Vangelovski]

Poligiros has joined our 7 day "Getting to Grips with Reality" program. If he graduates, he'll be allowed back on.

Just so there is no confusion:

When referring to Macedonians, the only acceptable terminology is Macedonian, Macedonians and Macedonia.

Any other rubbish such as RoMacedonia or RoMacedonians or 'M' or any other crap you can possibly come up with is unacceptable.

[Phoenix]

Poligiros has joined our 7 day "Getting to Grips with Reality" program. If he graduates, he'll be allowed back on.

Just so there is no confusion:

When referring to Macedonians, the only acceptable terminology is Macedonian, Macedonians and Macedonia.

Any other rubbish such as RoMacedonia or RoMacedonians or 'M' or any other crap you can possibly come up with is unacceptable.

He's got a good grip of something...

[Philosopher]

Hi Philosopher,

Andrew Rossos in a pro-RoMacedonia historian, and a lot of his views have been discredited. Please provide reputable non-biased sources for discussion. We will continue based on his statements and research.

Rossos touched on a point. The breakdown of statistics show large proportions of Turkic, ethnic Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian populations in Aegean Macedonia in the early 1900s.

As for the Macedonians, Rossos makes assumptions large numbers were unfairly distributed under the Bulgarian, Serbian and ethnic Greek umbrella.

Now, if the numbers were such that you constituted a majority in Aegean Macedonia, why did these people assimilate into Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian cultures? You would probably state that is was by force and the respective governments were tyrants etc and people didn't have a choice?

However this surely could NOT happen with a sizeable ethnic majority in a region?? How could a large number of people succumb and embrace a rival ethnicity?

An an example, Albanians make up approximately 30% of present day RoMacedonia, why aren't they being assimilated into the popular RoMacedonian culture and acquiring and utilizing the modern day Macedonian language?

Best regards,

Well, first of all, Andrew Rossos is a scholar from Standford University. I do not agree with everything he has written on the subject of Macedonia, but you cannot seriously claim his writings cannot be taken seriously because he is a pro Macedonian historian.

The problem with you Poligiro is that you make statements that have no basis in fact. First you claimed there was a "near similarity" between Macedonians and Bulgarians in a genetic study. I'm still waiting for this citation. It does not exist.

And now you are claiming (without evidence) that Rossos' use of statistics and censuses are wrong or been discredited? How? He is not writing his own opinion. He is not making up data. He is referencing historical censuses in the region. Please cite evidence that Rossos' statements are factually wrong. Please cite evidence that he misrepresents Aegean Macedonian censuses.

You cannot attack and discredit scholar's writings without evidence. Do not make blanket statements with no evidence.

Mostly Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian, they reflect those countries’ claims on Macedonia’s Slavic-speaking inhabitants. Nonetheless, all but the Greek sources find the Slavic speakers, the Macedonians, the majority of the population before 1913. On the basis of ‘‘a fairly reliable estimate in 1912,’’ the British Foreign Office cited the following figures, with Slavic-speaking Macedonians by far the largest group and about half of the total: Macedonian Slavs 1,150,000, Turks 400,000, Greeks 300,000, Vlachs 200,000, Albanians 120,000, Jews 100,000, and Gypsies (Roma) 10,000.

[Gocka]

You cannot attack and discredit scholar's writings without evidence. Do not make blanket statements with no evidence.

That's all he has done. He is in pure denial that everything that is contrary to his opinions exists. He brushes it off as not true, simply out of his opinion. This is a clear of an example of brainwashing as any. He cant even bring himself to contemplate the evidence and discredit it, his opinion is enough to discredit it.

[George S.]

polygyrus is a product of the times, he is a child of his own making and THe greek govt has achieved s creating psychos who are delusional
they suffer from paranoia,ridicule and anything in betwee calling it VISIONS OPF GRANDEUR.
.A couple of years ago i was trowelling through greek websites especially to do with their treatment of the rom question.Low and behold i found that the greek govt was going to consider giving up and "throwing in the proverbial towel""Why ??the reason being that macedonia was actually winning too much in the recognition stakes 130 countries that recognized rom under its
constitutional name.THey said it was a losing game.THey might as well give up the fight and end it all.In hindsight i should have saved that message to prove it was so true.IA HA.ALL i can say some of us know a whole lot more than we are letting on.
Polygyrus don't take us for fools we know youre just a puppet for the Greek govt.YOU say and echo EXACTLY not deviating from their viewpoint.
ONCE again you are sinply DELUSIONAL with visions of GRANDEUR to boot.Bring it on.

[Phoenix]

That's all he has done. He is in pure denial that everything that is contrary to his opinions exists. He brushes it off as not true, simply out of his opinion. This is a clear of an example of brainwashing as any. He cant even bring himself to contemplate the evidence and discredit it, his opinion is enough to discredit it.

It's not just this dickhead, they're all the same.
Their views are purely chauvinistic and political, their interpretation of the facts are always dynamic, flexible and moulded to fit their circumstances but they'll never allow you the same license.

In one of his posts he talks about his family living in the same place for 300 years, as if the majority of Macedonians can't make similar claims...

[Philosopher]

In one of his posts he talks about his family living in the same place for 300 years, as if the majority of Macedonians can't make similar claims...

And that assumes his family has always identified as Greek ethnically and spoke Greek.

[Gocka]

And that assumes his family has always identified as Greek ethnically and spoke Greek.

Even if they did what does that prove? Absolutely nothing. No one is saying that the entire population of Greece has been transplanted and turned Greek. That has no relevance to ancient Macedonia and Greece, who Macedonians were and are. That's the sad part, that although I think what he is saying is a lie, in the end it still doesn't have any value yet he thinks it proves something. My fathers side still lives in the same village that I can document for almost 200 years, possibly before that, but no records exist. What does that prove other than that my family has lived in the same place for a long time.

The whole premise that the "Greeks" in Aegean Macedonia are connected directly to the ancient Macedonians but the Macedonians 10 miles over the border have no connection defies any definition of the world logic. Its not like modern day ROM is 1000 miles from Aegean occupied Macedonia, its not even 200 miles to the north border of ROM. They have decided that the connection magically ends based on modern day borders.

[Phoenix]

Even if they did what does that prove? Absolutely nothing. No one is saying that the entire population of Greece has been transplanted and turned Greek. That has no relevance to ancient Macedonia and Greece, who Macedonians were and are. That's the sad part, that although I think what he is saying is a lie, in the end it still doesn't have any value yet he thinks it proves something. My fathers side still lives in the same village that I can document for almost 200 years, possibly before that, but no records exist. What does that prove other than that my family has lived in the same place for a long time.

The whole premise that the "Greeks" in Aegean Macedonia are connected directly to the ancient Macedonians but the Macedonians 10 miles over the border have no connection defies any definition of the world logic. Its not like modern day ROM is 1000 miles from Aegean occupied Macedonia, its not even 200 miles to the north border of ROM. They have decided that the connection magically ends based on modern day borders.

I think it's even more pathetic to think that the refugee element, those documented as having a largely Turkish culture and predominantly Turkish speaking, albeit of Christian religion with their roots in the remnants of an extremely diverse ethnic amalgam that was the Byzantine Empire, are today apparently more Macedonian than those very people from 10 miles across the border that you speak of.

That type of logic can only make sense to some pretty fucked up people...

[DraganOfStip]

Speaking of genetic researches,here's the latest,published just 2 days ago in newspaper "Vecer" (not Eupedia,but Swiss institute IGenea conducted it):

http://vecer.mk/balkan/koi-sme-nie-ova-se-genite-na-balkanskite-narodi

[Constellation]

Speaking of genetic researches,here's the latest,published just 2 days ago in newspaper "Vecer" (not Eupedia,but Swiss institute IGenea conducted it):

http://vecer.mk/balkan/koi-sme-nie-o...anskite-narodi

Thank you Dragan. This data does not appear to be any different than the data from years ago. It looks the same.

Am I missing something?

Eupedia does not perform genetic tests. All it does is gather published genetic studies, adds the numbers, and pops out a mean for haplogroups.

[George S.]

One thing that's abundantly clear is that greeks and macedonians are not related.The sooner we hear that the better for everyone.People are misjudging and using it to their advantage.

[Philosopher]

One thing that's abundantly clear is that greeks and macedonians are not related.The sooner we hear that the better for everyone.People are misjudging and using it to their advantage.

I think iGENEA's interpretation of the genetic data is fanciful. There is no way to make the statement that Macedonians are 15% Slavic, or 20% German, et al. There are no Slav genes. There are no German genes.

IGENEA should stick to haplogroups, and avoid ethnic and political descriptions.

In addition, data pertaining to genetic relatedness is best performed using HLA markers. Based on the studies out of Skopje and Sofia, Macedonians are genetically very close to their southern neighbors, including Crete.

[Philosopher]

Dejan
I wouldn't go that far bratko, I hate being associated with them in any way shape or form! They would be blessed to be able to call themselves Slavs!

I think two points can be added to this thread:

1. Greeks use "Slav" are racial epithet, a pejorative word, designed to enervate and shame us. The Greeks, who are good friends with the Serbs and the Russians, do not use the word Slav to describe them.

2. Genetically speaking, there is no "Slav". We are all people. It just so happens, that in Europe, the Slavs of the north have R1a in far great proportions than other European nations.