Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

[SoutherNeighbour]

SouthernNeighbour, because this is a Macedonian forum we have a policy of using either English or Macedonian. Using Greek limits the amount of readers that can understand the post to virtually only a handful. I'll ask you to please post in English.

You are right I am sorry.I was just aiming at being more direct with him/her.

[SoutherNeighbour]

Hi Southern Neighbor,

You are taking basic facts about the Hellenic populace

What are the basic facts?

The basic facts of the Hellenic propaganda rely on the the processes of ethnogenesis as was dictated by the West.Our nation is a made up bs concocted by the West in an effort to have a newly found state in order to counter the Ottoman Empire.

The rest is crap that the modern Greek state feeds its subjects in order to keep them in denial about their true bastard nature.

Let's initially agree that we (the neo-Greeks) are a bastard and fictitious nation and that the Balkans are a melting pot.Once we do this maybe we can move forward and recognise the self determination of the Macedonians and that of the Republic of Macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

You are right I am sorry.I was just aiming at being more direct with him/her.

No worries - we just want to keep it comprehensible.

[Poligiros]

What are the basic facts?
Let's initially agree that we (the neo-Greeks) are a bastard and fictitious nation and that the Balkans are a melting pot.Once we do this maybe we can move forward and recognise the self determination of the Macedonians and that of the Republic of Macedonia.

Hi Southern neighbour,

I admire your bravado, and aggressive anti-Hellenic bashing in proving allegiance and loyalty to your Macedonian friends on this forum. I am sure they like you!

However, I like to discuss reputable facts (on both sides), not inaccurate, erroneous statements that one can throw around and try to make stick.

A good starting point on Macedonian issue/history are reputable professors throughout ivy league institutions that research and teach Macedonian history and archeology ???

Now, lets be logical here. Contradicting your assertions, there is a petition signed by 400+ history professors from REPUTABLE academia who disagree entirely with your views.

(Stephen G. Miller Professor Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley) has one response from a RoMacedonian Archaelogist...

Dear Sir,

I opened the January/February issue of Archaeology today and eagerly turned to “A Letter from Macedonia” only to discover that it was actually a letter from ancient Paionia – the land north of Mt. Barmous and Mt. Orbelos. Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo. Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or Vardar) River. In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.

content deleted...

While Mr. Brunwasser’s reporting of the archaeological work in Paionia is welcome, his adoption and promotion of the modern political stance of its people about the use of the name Macedonia is not only unwelcome, it is a disservice to the readers of Archaeology who are, I imagine, interested in historic fact. But then, the decision to propagate this historical nonsense by Archaeology – a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America - is a disservice to its own reputation.

.....


Sincerely,

Stephen G. Miller
Professor Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley

Read the entire article (one of many), it does summarize some of the issue succinctly.

[Vangelovski]

Hi Southern neighbour,

I admire your bravado, and aggressive anti-Hellenic bashing in proving allegiance and loyalty to your Macedonian friends on this forum. I am sure they like you!

However, I like to discuss reputable facts (on both sides), not inaccurate, erroneous statements that one can throw around and try to make stick.

A good starting point on Macedonian issue/history are reputable professors throughout ivy league institutions that research and teach Macedonian history and archeology ???

Now, lets be logical here. Contradicting your assertions, there is a petition signed by 400+ history professors from REPUTABLE academia who disagree entirely with your views.

(Stephen G. Miller Professor Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley) has one response from a RoMacedonian Archaelogist...

Dear Sir,

I opened the January/February issue of Archaeology today and eagerly turned to “A Letter from Macedonia” only to discover that it was actually a letter from ancient Paionia – the land north of Mt. Barmous and Mt. Orbelos. Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo. Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or Vardar) River. In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.

content deleted...

While Mr. Brunwasser’s reporting of the archaeological work in Paionia is welcome, his adoption and promotion of the modern political stance of its people about the use of the name Macedonia is not only unwelcome, it is a disservice to the readers of Archaeology who are, I imagine, interested in historic fact. But then, the decision to propagate this historical nonsense by Archaeology – a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America - is a disservice to its own reputation.

.....


Sincerely,

Stephen G. Miller
Professor Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley

Read the entire article (one of many), it does summarize some of the issue succinctly.

Just because someone has a degree and says something is a 'fact' does not make it so. Facts can speak for themselves regardless of who puts it forward.

[Philosopher]

Hi Southern neighbour,

I admire your bravado, and aggressive anti-Hellenic bashing in proving allegiance and loyalty to your Macedonian friends on this forum. I am sure they like you!

However, I like to discuss reputable facts (on both sides), not inaccurate, erroneous statements that one can throw around and try to make stick.

A good starting point on Macedonian issue/history are reputable professors throughout ivy league institutions that research and teach Macedonian history and archeology ???

Now, lets be logical here. Contradicting your assertions, there is a petition signed by 400+ history professors from REPUTABLE academia who disagree entirely with your views.

(Stephen G. Miller Professor Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley) has one response from a RoMacedonian Archaelogist...

Dear Sir,

I opened the January/February issue of Archaeology today and eagerly turned to “A Letter from Macedonia” only to discover that it was actually a letter from ancient Paionia – the land north of Mt. Barmous and Mt. Orbelos. Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo. Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or Vardar) River. In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.

content deleted...

While Mr. Brunwasser’s reporting of the archaeological work in Paionia is welcome, his adoption and promotion of the modern political stance of its people about the use of the name Macedonia is not only unwelcome, it is a disservice to the readers of Archaeology who are, I imagine, interested in historic fact. But then, the decision to propagate this historical nonsense by Archaeology – a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America - is a disservice to its own reputation.

.....


Sincerely,

Stephen G. Miller
Professor Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley

Read the entire article (one of many), it does summarize some of the issue succinctly.

Well, to be fair, Greece ethnically cleansed the ethnic Macedonians from the region. Censuses, property titles, names of cities, streets, and the Macedonian Lexicon of the 1500s all attest to the ethnic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia.

No Greeks identified as Macedonian in those days.

Just because Aegean Macedonia was annexed by Greece does not make the Republic of Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians non-Macedonia and non-Macedonians.

[AMHRC]

Just because someone has a degree and says something is a 'fact' does not make it so. Facts can speak for themselves regardless of who puts it forward.

That's true.

Here's an interesting fact:

"most ancient Greek geographers did not include the core territories of the Kingdom of Macedonia in their descriptions of Greece”.

According to Johannes Engels, a scholar specialising in Ancient Macedonia,p.88 in A Companion to Ancient Macedonia, Oxford, Wiley-Blackwell 2010. It's part of a larger collection of scholarly works: The Blackwell Companions Series.

[Philosopher]

This is what Andrew Rossos wrote regarding the statistics regarding ethnic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia.

There are few pre-1800 statistics on Macedonians’ ethnicity. And the existing Ottoman estimates for the nineteenth century reflect the empire’s millet system of organization, which focused on religious affiliation, not on ethnic belonging. For example, before the establishment of the separate Bulgarian exarchate in 1870, the Orthodox millet included all of the sultan’s Orthodox subjects, regardless of ethnicity. Post-1850, pre-1913 sources on the ethnic composition of Macedonia—the Ottoman vilayets (provinces) of Salonika, Monastir, and Kosovo—are notoriously unreliable and confusing.

Mostly Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian, they reflect those countries’ claims on Macedonia’s Slavic-speaking inhabitants. Nonetheless, all but the Greek sources find the Slavic speakers, the Macedonians, the majority of the population before 1913. On the basis of ‘‘a fairly reliable estimate in 1912,’’ the British Foreign Office cited the following figures, with Slavic-speaking Macedonians by far the largest group and about half of the total: Macedonian Slavs 1,150,000, Turks 400,000, Greeks 300,000, Vlachs 200,000, Albanians 120,000, Jews 100,000, and Gypsies (Roma) 10,000. Because the Bulgarians, Greeks, and Serbs did not recognize Macedonians as a separate ethnic group or nationality, gauging ethnographic structure became virtually impossible after partition. The Bulgarians continued to claim all Macedonians as Bulgarians. The Greeks and Serbs moderated their claims; the former claimed only the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia as Greeks, or Slavophone Greeks, and the latter only those of Vardar Macedonia as Serbs, or South Serbs. Consequently, the interwar censuses could not include a Macedonian category but treated Macedonians as Bulgarian, Greek, and Serbian nationals, respectively. All pre-1913, non-Greek statistics find Macedonians the largest single group in Aegean Macedonia.

The figures range from 329,371, or 45.3 percent, to 382,084, or 68.9 percent, of non-Turks, and from 339,369, or 31.3 percent, to 370,371, or 35.2 percent, of the total population of approximately 1,052,227 inhabitants. The region’s number of Macedonians began to decline in both absolute and relative terms during the Balkan Wars. The process accelerated after 1918 under Greek plans to transform the region’s ethnic structure. Policies included colonization, internal transfers of Macedonians, and ‘‘voluntary’’ (with Bulgaria) and compulsory (with Turkey) exchanges of populations, or what we now call ‘‘ethnic cleansing.’’ By the mid 1920s, removal of 127,384 Macedonians and settlement of 618,199 Greeks (most of them refugees from Asia Minor) had completely changed the ethnography of Aegean Macedonia. Macedonians had become an unrecognized minority in their own land. Greece’s census of 1928, and its successors, presented the kingdom as ethnically homogeneous. It classified Macedonians as ‘‘Slavophone’’ Greeks and cited only 81,984 of them—a figure far too low in the light of all the non-Greek, pre-1913 statistics. The 1951 census, the first after the Civil War (1947–49), by which time the Greek state had become even more oppressive and repressive vis-a`-vis Macedonians, recorded only 47,000 Slavophones—an equally unreliable and misleading figure.

[Poligiros]

This is what Andrew Rossos wrote regarding the statistics regarding ethnic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia.

Hi Philosopher,

Andrew Rossos in a pro-RoMacedonia historian, and a lot of his views have been discredited. Please provide reputable non-biased sources for discussion. We will continue based on his statements and research.

Rossos touched on a point. The breakdown of statistics show large proportions of Turkic, ethnic Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian populations in Aegean Macedonia in the early 1900s.

As for the Macedonians, Rossos makes assumptions large numbers were unfairly distributed under the Bulgarian, Serbian and ethnic Greek umbrella.

Now, if the numbers were such that you constituted a majority in Aegean Macedonia, why did these people assimilate into Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian cultures? You would probably state that is was by force and the respective governments were tyrants etc and people didn't have a choice?

However this surely could NOT happen with a sizeable ethnic majority in a region?? How could a large number of people succumb and embrace a rival ethnicity?

An an example, Albanians make up approximately 30% of present day RoMacedonia, why aren't they being assimilated into the popular RoMacedonian culture and acquiring and utilizing the modern day Macedonian language?

Best regards,

[Gocka]

Everyone who is pro Macedonian is not "credible", so only people who are pro Greek are "credible", I see how this works.

You have not addressed and of the actual proofs that were presented. all you say is "that is not true" even when its a direct quote taken from an original source. Why cant you get it through your thick Turkish head. The Macedonians always knew who they were, even though throughout history other people may have been confused, the Macedonians always knew who they were. unlike your stock who always relied on outsiders to remind them of their greekness. You people are taking advantage of the romanticizing of a small group of philosophers from 2500 years ago. Had it not been for the immense respect people have for that small group, you people would not be Greeks today that is a simple fact.

You had every help possible to make sure that a Greek identity could be formed and survive, we had the opposite.

We were faced with challenges every step of the way, yet we still feel Macedonian, that is all the proof anyone needs. If we weren't the real thing we could not have survived, that is why no one succeeded in erasing us, because what we have is real.

Like Vangelovski said, the fad will wear off someday and you people will be claiming someone else s history and identity.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Hi Philosopher,

Andrew Rossos in a pro-RoMacedonia historian

The appropriate term would be either Pro-Macedonian or Pro-Ethnic Macedonian.

Utilising “RoMacedonia” in this context is not only incorrect, but intentionally misleading and racially derogatory.

Best regards,

[SoutherNeighbour]

Hi Southern neighbour,

I admire your bravado, and aggressive anti-Hellenic bashing in proving allegiance and loyalty to your Macedonian friends on this forum. I am sure they like you!

However, I like to discuss reputable facts (on both sides), not inaccurate, erroneous statements that one can throw around and try to make stick.

Firstly I dont give a flying f@ck on who likes me or not.I am sure plenty of people will find reasons to hate a gay atheist guy who absolutely despises the national narratives and hates ideological conservatism that is propagated also through the celebration of made up nations.The neo-Greek nation being a prime example of this.

Secondly its not important what you want to discuss.The conversation can be directed towards the true nature of this bs dispute between Greece and Macedonia regardless of the historical research which frankly is irrelevant since modern Greeks have nothing in common with the Ancient Greek tribes of the past.

The debate is highly political not historical.It stems from the fact that Greece is negating Macedonia's narrative without looking first at the mirror.Greece's hypocrisy overlooks the fact that the creation of the neo-hellenic nation was a systematic effort undertaken by the West when a new naval state was absolutely vital to counter the Ottoman Empire.In turn Greece uses all kinds of political pressures,vetoes,bans etc to make sure that Macedonia feels its grip.

Sure the two narratives clash but i dont care about Macedonia's narrative.I am a Greek citizen and I care primarily about making my home country a truly secular society that has abandoned ideas of historical superiority and such crap that keep modern Greeks hostages to their self-delusion.I want a Greece that respects its minorities, marginalises religion and shuts up people who still live with the complex of historical entitlement.Get over your self m8.If you accuse the Macedonians of being a newly made up nation then look at the mirror and wake the f@ck up.

If you live in Greece you already know that by now a good portion of the general population is sceptical about this bullshit historical entitlement.Slowly people are realising the crap of their national narrative and distance themselves.Those of you who keep on struggling along these lines are a minority and probably voters of Golden Dawn or something.If you live ( and especially if you grew up) in the diaspora,then I feel for you.You are so out of touch with how fast people in Greece are waking up.They dont even pay attention to you guys.Tell me something.Do you really believe that should the left win in the upcoming elections and SYRIZA assumes power in Greece you and your propaganda efforts will be at all relevant within the Greek society?

So please m8 dont patronise me.My being here has nothing to do with how Macedonian users perceive me.It has only to do with my strong ideological stance that wants a secular, non nationalistic Greece which totally marginalises and renders you guys as pathetic as the ISIS Jihadists.

[Vangelovski]

The appropriate term would be either Pro-Macedonian or Pro-Ethnic Macedonian.

Utilising “RoMacedonia” in this context is not only incorrect, but intentionally misleading and racially derogatory.

Best regards,

Yes, Poligiros, from now on you will refer to Macedonians as Macedonians or you will not be referring to anything at all on this forum.

[SoutherNeighbour]

Yes, Poligiros, from now on you will refer to Macedonians as Macedonians or you will not be referring to anything at all on this forum.

Dont be so cruel please.You will give him a heart attack

[George S.]

reece settled by hellenising at some p09nt iin paeonnia.That doesn't make them indigenous .Hellenising the place doesn't mean they rightfully own it.I'm well aware of all your paeonnian claims all are bs.Greeks arrived after the fact and not before.So trying to claim any sort of eclusivity is a sham claim.Greeks claim that paennoia belongs to them how they came after the fact.I'll debate any greek that all your claims on macedonia ARE TOTALLY BASELESS.poligirus you cant even debate anything as you can't acnowledge or admit to anything.What a waste of time.Tom is right he will give you guys a heart attack,Cause you guys can't face the truth.