Dostoinstvo

[lavce pelagonski]

Borjgali
Borjgali grave stone on the right under.

Borjgali armenian? [[1]]--85.100.42.44 22:56, 22 ნოემბერი 2009 (UTC)

In Georgia symbols of Bordjgali are met from the 5-th century DC. The Khachkar seems to be created in 1603, so the idea of Armenian origin of Bordjgali is incorrect. --Asomtavruli g.svgიორგი(საუბარი) 06:07, 23 ნოემბერი 2009 (UTC)


There are similar sun discs found in Armenia from times of Urartu. The example you give here is a recent one. What Georgians call "Bordjgali" can even be seen on one of the first Cathedrals in the world. St. Hripsime of Echmeadzin builed in 395 AD.

[Phoenix]

... that symbol and variations of it can be found all over the ancient world. That exact same symbol is a national symbol of Georgia and is on its passports. They are not specific to Macedonia.

The electoral commission cannot do anything. I will look for the article when I get a chance, but there is no other reason than capitulation for changing the sonce, which they had for over a decade to some obscure symbol of eternity.

Spot on.

Sun (star) symbolism is possibly the seminal artwork of the human race.
Whether it was the depiction of our sun itself, or one of the billions of flickering 'lights' in a pristine night sky.

No modern nation, peoples or individuals has a copyright on ancient symbolism.
Abandoning the adoption of such symbols is clearly an act of capitulation and political whoredom.

[Risto the Great]

The problem with all of these political leaders and aspirants is they all seem to have varying degrees of skeletal remains in their closets. All of them are typically treated with severe skepticism.

I find myself supportive of many of Angelov's sentiments. It is a start I suppose. He is far from perfect however.

[Soldier of Macedon]

His failure to take a principled stance against the Framework Agreement, his willingness to compromise on our national symbol, and his political alliance (and close friendship) with outright traitors raises questions of integrity. He may have fought for Macedonia against Albanian extremism, but then so did the relatives of many people on this forum. He needs to make some serious changes - and soon - before his image is tainted beyond repair. He can start by correcting the utterly stupid move below.

[Volk]

I know which shields you are referring to - that symbol and variations of it can be found all over the ancient world. That exact same symbol is a national symbol of Georgia and is on its passports. They are not specific to Macedonia.

The electoral commission cannot do anything. I will look for the article when I get a chance, but there is no other reason than capitulation for changing the sonce, which they had for over a decade to some obscure symbol of eternity.

Yes it can be found it area's of the ancient world. However it was specifically used by ancient Macedonians, the fact that it was prominent on Macedonian shields and coins solidifies this.

Please do as I plus I am sure others would be interested in it.

Lavce,

I am not sure what your getting at, there is a large section of a thread devoted to that symbol and it's use in Macedonia, it has been proven and there are no arguments about it. Look through the "The secrets of Macedonian civilization!" thread..

[Volk]

His failure to take a principled stance against the Framework Agreement, his willingness to compromise on our national symbol, and his political alliance (and close friendship) with outright traitors raises questions of integrity. He may have fought for Macedonia against Albanian extremism, but then so did the relatives of many people on this forum. He needs to make some serious changes - and soon - before his image is tainted beyond repair. He can start by correcting the utterly stupid move below.

No one in Macedonia will take a principled stand against the framework agreement. As far as I am aware he is the closest in this regard.

Yes many fought for Macedonia (many more did not) however he is regarded as THE war hero for a reasons I have already outlined. I don't hear any one else speaking up about albanian expansionism, do you?

Dostoinstvo has left the sojuz za idninata and said it would not align itself with other parties due to ideological reasons (name change, albanian extremism)

[Vangelovski]

Yes it can be found it area's of the ancient world. However it was specifically used by ancient Macedonians, the fact that it was prominent on Macedonian shields and coins solidifies this.

Please do as I plus I am sure others would be interested in it.

I know it was used by Macedonians, but I doubt that it was used as a symbol of the state or one that symbolised Macedonian identity. My sense is that it may have been a religious symbol.

Regardless, the point that many made about the ventilator was that it was supposedly older than the sonce and/or that it was a more legitimate national symbol. This is nonsense. This is the same reasoning that Dostoinstvo supporters used for the symbol of eternity on Dostoinstvo's facebook page when they changed it. This too is nonsense. Dostoinstvo's change was a clear capitulation.

I have a good guess as to where that line of thinking – that the sonce was too sensitive – comes from after having met with Angelov and some of his “advisors” back in 2009. Personally I think Angelov needs to clean house a little because he has some pseudo intellectuals standing behind him which are leading him astray. The problem with Angelov, in my view, is that he’s letting them in the hope that it actually gets him somewhere. But we already have enough brainless traitors.

I'm still looking for the source that I mentioned earlier.

[Soldier of Macedon]

........it was specifically used by ancient Macedonians, the fact that it was prominent on Macedonian shields and coins solidifies this.

You're missing the point. In this case, it is not which symbol he is using now, but why he changed it from the one he was using previously. And that has much more to do with his reluctance to stand up for the Macedonian sun rather than any conviction he may or may not have for that other symbol.

Yes many fought for Macedonia (many more did not) however he is regarded as THE war hero for a reasons I have already outlined.

His war efforts are commendable. He is not the only one who took a bullet. And that still doesn't automatically qualify him as the right person to lead Macedonia out of its mess. He may be the one, he may not, he is yet to definitively prove himself in that regard. As it stands, he has made some positive statements, but he has also made some stupid mistakes which should not have been made.

Dostoinstvo has left the sojuz za idninata and said it would not align itself with other parties due to ideological reasons (name change, albanian extremism)

Do you have a link for that?

[Gocka]

If your are going to effect any kind of change you need to have the guts to be a leader. Or else isn't he just blowing off steam? Until he takes that step and goes into a position of power you have no idea if he means anything he says. Gruevski "spoke up" about Albanians too while at the same time being in a coalition with them. Bleeding for the country is commendable, but as a political figure he is unproven and to date we are still not sure what his intentions are. You keep getting riled up about what he is saying, it doesn't mean anything if you don't act on it, or if you do other things that contradict what you are saying.

I didn't say he is no good, I said we do not know yet how good or bad he is. I am aware that politics and political pandering is necessary to get anywhere and that is why we will only know if it was pandering or how he really feels when or if he is elected.

I am cautiously optimistic about him, maybe once all the political positioning is in the past and he has sizable following in Macedonia then we will begin to see and hear more good things put of him.

As far as I know, he has a pretty small following in Macedonia, which is limited to war vets and their families. He has not gained much political traction yet and for some reason I don't think he will.

He speaks about topics that most Macedonians want nothing to do with. Macedonians don't like serious / dangerous topics, they just want gimmie gimmie, tell me what you can give me.

I never called on him to be Prime Minister, or even if he is capable of that. Facts are he has bled for the country and is the only political voice that is speaking up against the albanianization of Macedonia aka greater albania.

He has put aside his personal interests to defend the Macedonian nation and wake people up. If that is not commendable I am unaware what is. He could have easily joined VMRO, paid a ton of money (like every single 'nationalistic' party out there. You do the math.

As far as political aspirations, Dostoinstvo was created to defend the defenders rights and stand up to albanian expansionism. Are you awake Macedonia does not have an army structure that can defend the nation right now? That the albanians can take half of the military hardware and destroy the rest tomorrow.. There is only one person who has spoken up about this.

[Volk]

Apologies I've been traveling..

I know it was used by Macedonians, but I doubt that it was used as a symbol of the state or one that symbolised Macedonian identity. My sense is that it may have been a religious symbol.

Fact is we simply do not know, the fact that it was used on the royal shield of the ancient Macedonian armies and is prevalent throughout would suggest it is a significant symbol. I dont think it was used as a state symbol either.

I have a good guess as to where that line of thinking – that the sonce was too sensitive – comes from after having met with Angelov and some of his “advisors” back in 2009

This may or may not be the case, until I see some proof I am not going to make a solid conclusion, particularly stemming from your 'guess'

You're missing the point. In this case, it is not which symbol he is using now, but why he changed it from the one he was using previously. And that has much more to do with his reluctance to stand up for the Macedonian sun rather than any conviction he may or may not have for that other symbol.

His war efforts are commendable. He is not the only one who took a bullet. And that still doesn't automatically qualify him as the right person to lead Macedonia out of its mess. He may be the one, he may not, he is yet to definitively prove himself in that regard. As it stands, he has made some positive statements, but he has also made some stupid mistakes which should not have been made.

Do you have a link for that?

I am not disagreeing with you, however ideologically he is far beyond any other Macedonian politician.

For the link, it was a misrepresented article. He said in an interview they are seriously considering withdrawing from the coalition, however this has not yet happened.

[George S.]

im pissed off big time with all of our politicians pandering to the likes of albanian minorities.
As someone mentioned also they have dwindled the army down so much that you'd hardly call it an army.A 2001 battle is envitable when the albs see we got no army we are screwed from the start.We can't deter them.Nobody but nobody will come to our aid.Countries like greece have said in the event of a war like 2001 or similar they are coming on our territory to contain any spillover pretext for?
Now as far as the albanians go as minorities they have been given every right under the sun.They are protected under the macedonian constitution.THey are protected by the un charter of which macedonia is a signatory.Also under the charter of the council of europe the minorities are protected.So why are we having special privileges & ohrid agreements as if the albs are missingout on some fundamental rights..Look at it this way we have certainly not told them that this is our land i'm sure they will ignore us.The govt of the day has done nothing & looks like it's doing nothing nobody seems to care.Shocking that the albanians have access tou our very own weapons & that they will not hesitate to use them agains't us.As i said we are being painted in a corner where we are going to be screwed more so that we have nothing but compromise & capitulation to give in.
Whether it's the flag of which i read somewhere was sold for money $40 million. Or the name many have stated that (politicians) will change it just so that they can enter the eu or nato.Perhaps a little money might persuade them to change.How many times has grujo & co changed our name allready a willing partner if i ever saw one.Greece refused the name allready.What the dickens is grujo doing even just negotiating.Who gave him the right.What makes people so sure that he is going to consult with anyone.We are being screwed as we speak.Grujo & co are readily capitulating on a name desried by greece.A huge letdown if you ask me.Why are people so readily praising him he has simply pulled the wool over the people's eyes.He is allready doing what he wants & there is nothing that anyone can do.

[Vangelovski]

This may or may not be the case, until I see some proof I am not going to make a solid conclusion, particularly stemming from your 'guess'.

My guess is based on actually having had long and detailed conversations with some of his advisors. Take what you will from it, but when actions (such as changing the sonce) are taken that confirm the views they've stated to me personally, then you'd be well advised to at least consider what I've said before you go down the same old path as you did with gruevski previously.

I am not disagreeing with you, however ideologically he is far beyond any other Macedonian politician.

In some respects he is, but not completely. I had much rosier glasses on when it came to Angelov until recently when someone pointed out to me that although Angelov has always denounced the Framework Agreement he's never actually called for it to be repealled. This is nothing more that Georgievski. Georgievski openly admits that the FA was treason (I've never actually seen Angelov do that, but I may be wrong), but never calls for it to be repealled. In recent times, Angelov has called on the Albanians, particularly Xhaferi, to work within the spirit of the FA and has said that it is a framework for multiethnic coexistence, implying that it was a just or legitimate agreement. These are scary propositions.

http://www.plusinfo.mk/vest/81819/St...ata-katastrofa