Macedonians vs Albanians: Beyond Natural Rights 101

[Risto the Great]

But in this instance you agree that both rights claims are legitimate so we need to determine which hold more merit.

I think it is absolute rubbish to talk about which holds more merit. A prominent group of Swedish revolutionaries (called ABBA) penned a powerful message when they wrote "the winner takes it all".

In other words, while we are trying to determine which claim has the most merit, the ethnic Albanians are dismantling the Macedonian State. Then they will justify their position as victors.

What about the argument that the Albanians are not claiming the entire state (which is debatable) but only territory in which they reside. That would still leave a large chunk of territory on which Macedonians could have a state?

I think it would be a reasonable argument if Macedonia was not already a portion of its former geographic region. But we already have a Macedonia that is a victim of these machinations over 100 years ago. This kind of border shifting is not embraced easily nowadays and I do not think Kosovo should be looked at for inspiration.

[Gocka]

Where this issue gets complicated is when you get into the debate about whether there should be centralized or localized control of a state. I think most would agree no one wants a completely centralized system where only a hand full of people in the capital decide whats good for every city in the country, then again you don't want 30-40 individual countries within your one, you certainly don't want that if 10 of those are little Albanian countries. In our case its not so easy to be fair because of the ultra nationalistic and violent nature of the Albanians. In a more civilized country and region this wouldn't be so hard and we could more easily make the necessary sacrifices in order to come to an agreement. In Macedonia we can not do that in good faith. I do thin that a majority should have the majority of the control, its not always ideal but isn't it even more silly for a minority to have most of the power? The Albanians have a few legitimate claims. I think local self governance is one, but the problem is that they abuse that right to the maximum every time. The have local self governance but they have no regard for the centralized authority that is supposed to keep things balanced. How can you allow someone to self govern when they don't want to be part of the country they are in but want to be part of another? At a minimum we should allow them the same rights that we wont our fellow Macedonians in annexed regions to have. I think they already have those and much much more. It all comes down to abuse, its so hard to give them rights and power because they are like wild animals and abuse everything you give them and then ask for more, so in the end you are hesitant and reluctant to give them anything.

[Big Bad Sven]

It all comes down to abuse, its so hard to give them rights and power because they are like wild animals and abuse everything you give them and then ask for more, so in the end you are hesitant and reluctant to give them anything.

We have seen what the shiptars have done in kosovo when they exercised their 'natural rights'. We have seen roma being driven from their homes or terrorized to leave. And these are a neutral people who have done nothing wrong to the shiptars. The serbs obviously copped it the worst from the shiptars, being the losers of the war.

Its the same in Macedonia, we have seen the terror tactics the shiptars have done to macedonians in places like Tetovo.

If Shiptars want to cry on CNN about facing 'human rights abuse' in macedonia then they need to be honorable and respect the minorities that live in shiptar dominated area's. But we know that wont happen and the shiptars will drive out every non-albanian element by using the 'atrocities' of the kosovo and macedonian war as a vehicle to achieve this

[Big Bad Sven]

Its obvious deep down that the shiptars dont want to be apart of Macedonia. Looking at recent history we can see the shiptars dont tolerate non-albanians in shiptar dominated area's.

To me it seems their 'natural right' is more closer to nazism and facism

[Tomche Makedonche]

I think it is absolute rubbish to talk about which holds more merit

Have to say I concur with the above

[Vangelovski]

I think it is absolute rubbish to talk about which holds more merit. A prominent group of Swedish revolutionaries (called ABBA) penned a powerful message when they wrote "the winner takes it all".

In other words, while we are trying to determine which claim has the most merit, the ethnic Albanians are dismantling the Macedonian State. Then they will justify their position as victors.

Its not so much about determining which has more merit (we should already know that), its more about explaning it to Macedonians. When war inevitably comes (again), Macedonians will ask why they should fight (even if its just a pathetic attempt to excuse themselves). This is part of the answer.

The victor can try and justify their aims and actions all they like, unless they have a moral foundation for them they can't. Greece has been trying to justify its occupation of southern Macedonia for 100 years. They can't. All they've managed to do is polish their turd. But at the end of the day its still a turd.

[Risto the Great]

But at the end of the day its still a turd.

If it is still a turd, then why is everyone pretending they can't smell anything? Greece was the victor. Macedonia bent over and changed their flag, their constitution and their name because of that "turd" the Greeks have. So clearly some turds are enforceable.

Macedonians will be fighting for their identity. Ethnic Albanians are fighting for a land grab.

[Vangelovski]

If it is still a turd, then why is everyone pretending they can't smell anything? Greece was the victor. Macedonia bent over and changed their flag, their constitution and their name because of that "turd" the Greeks have. So clearly some turds are enforceable.

Macedonians will be fighting for their identity. Ethnic Albanians are fighting for a land grab.

That takes us back to the slave mentality. Macedonians pretend they can't smell the turd because they are moral cowards. They either can't understand or don't want to face up to the fact that they have rights but that these rights ultimately need to be protected by those that wish to exercise them.

This is where people get confused - they think because you have to protect your rights it means that you only have them because you are able to use force to exercise them. But that's a misunderstanding that ultimately leads to the Macedonian situation - 'might is right and because we have no might we musn't have rights', immediately followed by 'navednata glava sabja ne sece'.

What an individual (and by extention the nation) should understand is that you have rights because they are morally justified. You have to protect them because there are obviously many in the world that want to prevent you from exercising your rights for whatever reason.

I know Macedonians, some on this forum, who would rather play the bank clerk who gives the thief whatever he wants, than the home owner who would do anything to protect himself, his family and his property. They also usually lead the cheer groups that ask the question - why should we fight preferring walk around with a bowed head in submission to whomever happens to be rapping his village this time.

While they may be attempting to excuse themselves from fulfilling their responsibilities (to their families, community and country), its still our job to answer that question for those that may ask it in sincerity and those whose instinct is to protect themselves but don't necessarily understand what's going on.

[George S.]

think about it our achievemnt of our goals (macedonia) seems to be unreachable.We give up so easily to the albanians due to our slave mentality.Look at the way macedonian sovereignity is just dolled out to the albanians who are only minority.The macedonian people are a majority which under normal circumstances expect majority rule.Albanian s are not even respecting us or our legitimate rights as citizens.It is more than just a land grab as our rights as majority is trodden down.
Greece is like a totalirian state they have taken everything away except the slave mentality instilled in the macedonians .The macedonians cannot think outside the square.
They can't even detect what a turd is because they can't see or smell it.They are conditioned to accept anything that moves is ok to them.THe macedonian nation is off the beaten track & have lost their wayIt's like a ship with no rudderetc ,etc.