Macedonians vs Albanians: Beyond Natural Rights 101

[Vangelovski]

Its obvious that there is only a handful of poeple on this forum that understand natural rights and have only ever being able to focus their energy on explaning the bare bone basics of them. Nowhere that I can think of have we ever gone beyond that and I think its becoming a weakness for this forum and the Macedonian cause in general. This is why I want to pose the following question in terms that are of utmost importance to Macedonia and take the whole issue of natural rights up a notch.

Obviously there is an ongoing conflict in Macedonia between the Macedonians and Albanians. In a nutshell, Macedonians claim a right to the territorial integrity of the state and governance over that state on the basis of democratic principles/majority rule. Albanians claim a right to self-determination (while this claim does not necessarily imply outright independence, it does imply a level of self-governance that we are generally opposed to).

What do you think? Whose claim is legitimate and why? If both are legitimate claims, whose claim outweighs the other and why?

[Vangelovski]

Come on, 36 views and still no one has had the courage to take a stand on one of the gravest threats to the Macedonian cause at the moment? We're not all just waiting for me to say something so we can all jump in and disagree are we?

[makedonche]

Both claims are legitimate, in Macedonia's case the Albanians have pursued and exercised their rights and exceeded them and outweighed the Macedonians rights by doing so, therefore the Albanians rights are outweighing the Macedonians!

[Vangelovski]

Both claims are legitimate, in Macedonia's case the Albanians have pursued and exercised their rights and exceeded them and outweighed the Macedonians rights by doing so, therefore the Albanians rights are outweighing the Macedonians!

Well the Albanians are certainly exercising their rights and much more (including non-existent rights).

But I was hoping members could build up the moral/intellectual case for Macedonia here. If both claims are legitimate, which one holds more merit? Ours or theirs? Why?

[makedonche]

Well the Albanians are certainly exercising their rights and much more (including non-existent rights).

But I was hoping members could build up the moral/intellectual case for Macedonia here. If both claims are legitimate, which one holds more merit? Ours or theirs? Why?

Personally i can't find the energy to do something for someone who doesn't want to do it for themselves! The Macedonians have either bartered, prostituted, given away or just couldn't be fucked exercising or standing up for their rights!

[Risto the Great]

I responded and then the MTO database seized. I'll do it again later.

[Vangelovski]

Personally i can't find the energy to do something for someone who doesn't want to do it for themselves! The Macedonians have either bartered, prostituted, given away or just couldn't be fucked exercising or standing up for their rights!

Yes, it is getting harder and harder to justify time and energy for the benefit of those that couldn't care less.

However, this question will eventually come to a head in Macedonia and I haven't seen anyone put forward the moral/intellectual case as to why our claims supercede, or have more merit than, the Albanian claims. I think this is a gap that the MTO can fill.

[Vangelovski]

I responded and then the MTO database seized. I'll do it again later.

That's the modern version of 'my dog ate my homework'

[Risto the Great]

Both claims are legitimate. Both groups of people are human beings and have natural rights. There are more Macedonians. They win the competition by being the majority. Though you wouldn't think it. They also deserve to win because the Macedonian nation does not thrive or exist anywhere else. The Macedonians abroad also deserve an ancestral homeland.

Ultimately it should be up to the will of the Macedonian majority to put forward their claim. If they do not want it, it will be lost easily and justifiably.

[Bill77]

Sorry boys, but my stance (unless you can convince me otherwise) differs from yours.

Ethnic Albanians claims to Self Determination if it implies a level of self governance should not be legitimised. Could some of you tell me why it should?

If anyone can name me what rights of theirs are neglected to justify separatism and self governance, then I would reconsider my stance.

[Vangelovski]

Both claims are legitimate. Both groups of people are human beings and have natural rights. There are more Macedonians. They win the competition by being the majority .

Simply saying that the majority wins because it is a majority is begging the question. The fact that there is a majority and a minority involved is inherent to the premise - state integrity vs self-determination for a minority - and not an answer to it. To say the majority wins because it is a majority also presupposes that the question is falacious in that there are no competing rights in question or that only one of those claimed rights is legitimate. But in this instance you agree that both rights claims are legitimate so we need to determine which hold more merit.

At least this in part eliminates the Albanian claim that their right to self-determination holds more merit because the territory in which they claim it is majority Albanian populated.

They also deserve to win because the Macedonian nation does not thrive or exist anywhere else. The Macedonians abroad also deserve an ancestral homeland.

What about the argument that the Albanians are not claiming the entire state (which is debatable) but only territory in which they reside. That would still leave a large chunk of territory on which Macedonians could have a state?

[Vangelovski]

Sorry boys, but my stance (unless you can convince me otherwise) differs from yours.

Ethnic Albanians claims to Self Determination if it implies a level of self governance should not be legitimised. Could some of you tell me why it should?

If anyone can name me what rights of theirs are neglected to justify separatism and self governance, then I would reconsider my stance.

Bill77, these are the arguments (in their most basic form) that are put up by both sides. Saying that we should not legitimse (not sure what exactly you mean by that) is fine, but it does not establish the 'why'.

Noone is suggesting that separatism or self-determination in some other form is justified. At least not so far. That is the whole point. The Albanians have made the claim. What is our response? I take it that you are suggesting that their claim to the right of self-determination is not a legitimate one? The question is why? The point of the question is to advance the moral/intellectual argument of the Macedonian side.

[George S.]

Albanian claims are not legitimate is that they are simply out there to claim what is not theirs.Macedonia is for the Macedonians.Any basic rights that the albanians want can be added to by them simply being macedonian citizens.Albanians have virtually enjoyed all their basic rights that macedonians enjoy.The albanians want more.The albanians aren't really after rights but priveleges that go beyond sovereignity or rule by majority in a democracy.
Don't forget macedoniaallready gave albanian minority rights they are in the constitution guaranteed.Also being on the un they have to agree to minority rights.What kind of rights are we talking about here basic human rights the rights to cultural,language,educational rights.This doesn't mean greater privliges. like starting your own university in albanian,their own passports in albanian.The albanians are not indigenous to macedonia hence they can't be asking for rights to self detirmination.If that's the case they can ask for secession rights etc.

[Bill77]

. Saying that we should not legitimse (not sure what exactly you mean by that)

I was directing it at RTG and Makedonche which from my understanding, they think its justifiable the Ethnic Albanian argument you mentioned which was in a nutshell their claims to "self determination"

As to why I disagree? It would have many implications caused by such division which is what it is "Division" it's especially dangerous for such a young independent state that is still trying to find its feet.

There has to be a cause for such movement to become reasonable (legitimate solution to a problem). if anything this causes problems rather than solutions, so what is legitimate or justifiable about it. As I mentioned neglect of rights that is continuess, would be reasonable cause for taking control in your own hands. What resonable rights are the Ethnic Albanians denied?

Noone is suggesting that separatism or self-determination in some other form is justified. At least not so far.

But imo, that is what self governance is, "separatism" in this case, dangerously based on ethnicity suiting and bias towards a particular group rather than benefiting citizens regardless of Ethnicity or religious beliefs which then we have a problem of discrimination, a hypocritical situation caused by Ethnic Albanians.

Albanians living in a specific city or area would claim they feel a rulling government or other institutions are incompitent to fairly govern. Now the left out groups within these Albanian self governed regions, could they make same claims? would it be just if they take matters to govern in their own hands? Then a third party follow suit? What we then get is anarchy and not one authority that can control and be accountable

[Vangelovski]

Albanians living in a specific city or area would claim they feel a rulling government or other institutions are incompitent to fairly govern. Now the left out groups within these Albanian self governed regions, could they make same claims? would it be just if they take matters to govern in their own hands? Then a third party follow suit? What we then get is anarchy and not one authority that can control and be accountable

I think you've hit one of the nails on the head Bill. SoM also mentioned this one a while back.

If we were to accept the Albanian claim that their right to self-determination supersedes our right to the integrity of the Macedonian state, then all we do shift the problem. Its not a solution at all. Were they to be given self-governance in a particular territory, then new minorities would be created. These minorities could lay exactly the same claim in a spiralling situation (given the demographics) that can only lead to a ludicrous situation of micro-states that are completely impractical for any purpose. I think that this particular argument shows that the Albanian claim is nonsensical.

But I think there's more.