Blind Nationalism a theory

[Vangelovski]

Gocka,

I don’t think Macedonians’ dislike of each other is anything out of the ordinary. I think you’ll find the most, if not all, peoples experience the same thing. I see it here (in Australia) with all ethnicities and Australians in general. I’ve seen it in other countries where I’ve spent extended periods and studied in.

I don’t think a degree of competition and confrontation is necessarily a bad thing and can be beneficial. I think the important thing is reasonable/intelligent cooperation between people when necessary. Most people work with others that they don’t like or can’t stand, but they are able to get their jobs done very effectively. That’s certainly the case in my office.

I think Macedonians are not only afraid of most things but have been indoctrinated to believe that they are inferior and cannot succeed in anything, and therefore they should not even try. I think they have been indoctrinated (and now basically self-indoctrinate) to believe that they just need to accept the cards they’ve been dealt and to try and improve their situation is undesirable and unachievable.

I know that the vast majority of Macedonians have no idea what natural rights and corresponding responsibilities are and when you explain it to them, they dismiss it as some sort of “idealistic foolishness”. This is their slave mentality. Until they realise that they have rights and responsibilities and why they are important, they will never change.

I don’t really want to open this idea at the moment as its been a point of discussion previously, but I think its certainly a key issue. I think they have a completely unwarranted belief in conspiracy theories – that the world is controlled by a handful of people and that “they” don’t want Macedonia to succeed, therefore, Macedonians have no hope and shouldn’t try. This, in my view, is one of those idiotic beliefs and generally espoused by people who have absolutely no experience in, or understanding of, politics, government administration and it seems private enterprise. The conspiracy theories that Macedonians in Macedonia and the Diaspora believe are quite shocking and to be honest, I cannot understand how any rational being could actually think that some of these theories are possible, desirable or even make any sense.

I think that you are right about laziness. In my view, it’s another big issue over there. I think we’ve all experienced the level of laziness over there and don’t need to dwell too much into it.

I firmly believe that Macedonians suffer from a slave mentality that has been indoctrinated into them over centuries. I think that it is supported by fear and that is why many of them are immune to rational thinking. I think that if they can overcome this, they can build a country that has some semblance of a functioning political, legal and economic system. But you need to understand that each and every individual has to go through this process. Nations as a whole do not have a brain – individuals have brains and each and every individual needs to reason this through in their own mind. Until they do so, or a large enough group does so, the Albanians, Greeks etc will play them like the fools they are.

This is why I was saying to you in the other thread that you underestimate the Greeks and Albanians. One can see in both their words and actions that they (at least a large enough group) do not suffer from a slave mentality. You can see from their words and actions that they (at least a large enough group) genuinely understand what their rights and responsibilities are (albeit they don't exactly fulfill their responsibilities). They have reasoned this through in their minds and they are acting on it.

[Gocka]

Gocka,

I don’t think Macedonians’ dislike of each other is anything out of the ordinary. I think you’ll find the most, if not all, peoples experience the same thing. I see it here (in Australia) with all ethnicities and Australians in general. I’ve seen it in other countries where I’ve spent extended periods and studied in.

I don’t think a degree of competition and confrontation is necessarily a bad thing and can be beneficial. I think the important thing is reasonable/intelligent cooperation between people when necessary. Most people work with others that they don’t like or can’t stand, but they are able to get their jobs done very effectively. That’s certainly the case in my office.

I think Macedonians are not only afraid of most things but have been indoctrinated to believe that they are inferior and cannot succeed in anything, and therefore they should not even try. I think they have been indoctrinated (and now basically self-indoctrinate) to believe that they just need to accept the cards they’ve been dealt and to try and improve their situation is undesirable and unachievable.

I know that the vast majority of Macedonians have no idea what natural rights and corresponding responsibilities are and when you explain it to them, they dismiss it as some sort of “idealistic foolishness”. This is their slave mentality. Until they realise that they have rights and responsibilities and why they are important, they will never change.

I don’t really want to open this idea at the moment as its been a point of discussion previously, but I think its certainly a key issue. I think they have a completely unwarranted belief in conspiracy theories – that the world is controlled by a handful of people and that “they” don’t want Macedonia to succeed, therefore, Macedonians have no hope and shouldn’t try. This, in my view, is one of those idiotic beliefs and generally espoused by people who have absolutely no experience in, or understanding of, politics, government administration and it seems private enterprise. The conspiracy theories that Macedonians in Macedonia and the Diaspora believe are quite shocking and to be honest, I cannot understand how any rational being could actually think that some of these theories are possible, desirable or even make any sense.

I think that you are right about laziness. In my view, it’s another big issue over there. I think we’ve all experienced the level of laziness over there and don’t need to dwell too much into it.

I firmly believe that Macedonians suffer from a slave mentality that has been indoctrinated into them over centuries. I think that it is supported by fear and that is why many of them are immune to rational thinking. I think that if they can overcome this, they can build a country that has some semblance of a functioning political, legal and economic system. But you need to understand that each and every individual has to go through this process. Nations as a whole do not have a brain – individuals have brains and each and every individual needs to reason this through in their own mind. Until they do so, or a large enough group does so, the Albanians, Greeks etc will play them like the fools they are.

This is why I was saying to you in the other thread that you underestimate the Greeks and Albanians. One can see in both their words and actions that they (at least a large enough group) do not suffer from a slave mentality. You can see from their words and actions that they (at least a large enough group) genuinely understand what their rights and responsibilities are (albeit they don't exactly fulfill their responsibilities). They have reasoned this through in their minds and they are acting on it.

Well done, all around.

I have to agree with everything. I have never doubted the salve mentality, nor underestimated it, I simply just want to try and understand it better and see if there is a way around it, be it temporarily of course.

I can't be the only one who sees what's going on and wonders how much longer until we are wiped off the map one way or another. Given the situation can we really wait until enough people are shed of their slave skin to begin any positive movement? Sometimes based on the people I meet and the things I hear, I think more Macedonians are becoming slaves rather then moving away from that mentality. It appears our own government is getting quite good at exploiting it these days, let alone our natural enemies.

It seems at the moment there is no hope unless there is some jolt in the system . Or else this is bound to keep repeating itself until we just become a small minority in a foreign country.

The last few days I have been pondering nationalism and what it means and where it comes from.

How would you define nationalism and what is its relevance in the case of Macedonia?

To feel nationalistic you must have some sense of responsibility right? A responsibility to your country. I guess what the responsibility is gets blurred and abused at times but in essence being a nationalist means doing the best for your country? Correct me if I'm wrong of course.
Sometimes I think nationalism is in line with rights and responsibilities but sometimes I think nationalism is another mindless cult which is it, or can it be both depending on who we are talking about?

You have explained the slave mentality well but can you touch on nationalism as you see it and give me an example of positive nationalism and negative, please.

I've also been pondering what you said about fear of repercussion and inferiority. I deal with the inferiority issues with my own family on a daily basis. Statements like, "well we are not like them", "we could never do that", "we have no choice", "god willed it for us to be this way". It never ends, and I am always left in shock at how someone could constantly put themselves down and ensure they never even attempt anything in their life.

I have been trying to think of ways to show Macedonians that there is nothing to fear, that nothing bad will happen. I'll talk more about it when I gather my thoughts.

This is the kind of discussion I hoped for with "Operation Sonce".

Get down to the details of issues and see if there is anything that can be done on a practical grass roots level. I am not a quitter and I am sure that we can offer something positive to the situation, who knows maybe even change something one day.

[sydney]

I think there are two currents here - Macedonia and the diaspora. With Macedonia, the Macedonians are (I believe) on the path to saying enough is enough. They are becoming hungrier than others (Albanians for example), they are feeling more aggrieved than ever before. They have their own state but are aliens within it. This can't continue.

And we have the diaspora. Us. Until the above is solved we can't do a lot more (for the moment).

[Vangelovski]

Gocka,

I've been researching nationalism in a formal context for about 12 years now. For what it’s worth, my advice is to not get too bogged down with it, especially in relation to the Macedonian cause. It’s like trying to nail water to the wall.

I think that politically, it’s much more important for Macedonians, as individuals, to realise that they have individual inalienable natural rights and corresponding responsibilities AND why these are important.

Key examples include the right to life, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of expression and freedom of association and assembly. From some of these come collective national rights, such as the right to self-determination.

I think Macedonians need to realise their individual rights, before they will ever even try to assert their national rights. If they don’t care about themselves and their families, why on earth would they care about their nation, a concept that is vague and aloof for many of them, and one that consists of strangers they’ve never met nor care to?

The slave mentality inflicts individuals and it needs to be destroyed at the individual level. If Macedonians can manage to do that – to understand why their individual rights and responsibilities are important and what they are – then they’ll understand that they have common and national interests and the necessity of protecting them.

[Gocka]

If they don’t care about themselves and their families, why on earth would they care about their nation, a concept that is vague and aloof for many of them, and one that consists of strangers they’ve never met nor care to?

This really drove it home for me. I suppose there really is no way to argue against that.

As you know by now I agree that the salve mentality is the core of everything that is wrong with our nation.

Do you believe there is a such thing as a useful idiot?

Also more importantly, do you think that the Republic will last long enough for enough people to become independent thinkers and bring about positive change?

Or is the republic not that important in the short term? Could there still be a positive end result even if the republic is lost in the short term?

[Vangelovski]

This really drove it home for me. I suppose there really is no way to argue against that.

As you know by now I agree that the salve mentality is the core of everything that is wrong with our nation.

Do you believe there is a such thing as a useful idiot?

Also more importantly, do you think that the Republic will last long enough for enough people to become independent thinkers and bring about positive change?

Or is the republic not that important in the short term? Could there still be a positive end result even if the republic is lost in the short term?

My thinking in order of the questions:

I'm sure there's a place for 'idiots' in support roles, but I wouldn't rely on them for any of the heavy lifting.

I think Macedonia, as a state entity, will last but not necessarily as a functioning (even less so then now) state only because I don't think any of our neighbours want to deal with our crap. I don't think any of our neighbours have the capacity or resources, or even the will, to actually absorb Macedonia as it would become a dead end money pit for them.

Its definately no longer a Macedonian state, or at least no longer exclusively a Macedonian state - the Constitution, the Framework Agreement, the Interim Accord and the institutional and political power held by the Albanians has made sure of that.

I think losing all control of the state, or the state ceasing to exist entirely, would make it only that much harder for future Macedonians.

A lot of peoples (nations) have disapeared into obscurity throughout history and no longer exist. I certainly think the Macedonians are in danger of following in their footsteps - they certainly have been going down that path for decades, if not longer.