Blind Nationalism a theory

[Gocka]

I have created this thread in an attempt to appease a certain member on this forum and to explain myself against accusations that I was or am promoting indirectly the “slave mentality”

About 2 months ago, I had made some comments right after Talat Xaferi was given the post of Defense Minister.

Naturally I was very angry and emotional, not only about Xaferi (a former UCK commander) being given the post, but also angry at the very subdued reaction of the Macedonians in ROM.

I had said things such as “someone should assassinate him” referring to Xaferi and possibly other UCK terrorists. I had also brought up an idea that I named blind nationalism. The basis was people acting emotionally in the interest of their nation without fully understanding why they are doing it.

I was swiftly corrected by the user Vangelovski. He countered what I was saying by saying it was dangerous and undemocratic. I put up some resistance but as soon as the anger was out of the equation I refuted my only claims and ended on the following note

“I do not want nor endorse any form of violence” I refuted almost all my claims and said that I would like a peaceful and democratic approach rather than violence. This whole episode lasted no more than a day but today I still face accusations that I was and am promoting this such as violence and slave mentality.

In an effort to work out my own viewpoint on a general idea that I have I would like to have an open discussion about it on here. I have not formed a completed theory, so anything I say is not promotion but simply academic discussion. I will make claims and anyone is free to chime in and explain if they agree or disagree. I would like any viewpoints or criticisms as long as they are polite and without insult. That Includes insulting each other and not only me.

I am an out loud thinker. I need conversation to work through an idea. I think this type of discussion is healthy as long as it is in good spirits. I don’t expect too many posters other than myself and Vangelovski but anyone is welcome to chime in.

[Gocka]

I will begin by trying to explain the foundation and background of my theory (which is still incomplete)

It is without question that nationalism comes in many forms and for many reasons. A common reason is outside threat. This is usually promoted by the government through a false outside threat in order to consolidate power as the protector. We can see this type of approach in ROM with Gruevski and VMRO. A real and present outside threat is also a cause for nationalistic feelings. People tend to band together in order to fight what they perceive as a common threat. The Greeks did it to fight the Macedonians. They were at constant war with each other but when a more powerful outside threat was born in the Macedonians, they banded together in an attempt to defeat them.
We have indoctrinated nationalism which can be found in countries with dictatorships or communist systems. North Korea and the USSR are good examples, modern Greece is also an example of indoctrination through the educational system.

There is nationalism through dependency. This is what I believe happened in Yugoslavia. People were dependent on the state so they had no choice but worship it, at first it may have been fake but eventually it morphed into something real. We can see the effects still last today. Many people are still loyal to a nation that doesn’t exist anymore.

I’m sure there are many more examples of different types of nationalism, and feel free to provide some if you can think of any.
Each type of nationalism has a benefactor I suppose. The State, the dictator, but probably only one benefits the people as a whole but maybe only in the short term. I am referring to the banding together because of a common threat.

In my opinion all the nationalism types I described can be considered “blind” but the one I think may be useful is the banding together because of a common threat.

I did mention just before that it may be only in the short term. That is because in the long term, ideally you want something way more complicated and pure than just reacting to a threat.
How does it relate to Macedonia today?

Those of us who follow closely know the biggest threat to the survival of the Macedonian state is the Albanian factions present in ROM who have separatist tendencies and will use any means possible to achieve their goals, well maybe second biggest. The Macedonians themselves are the biggest threat to the survival of the state. Decades of psychological manipulation have left us with srbomani, grkomani, bugaromani, fyromci, and pretty much anything you can think of, and of course the infamous slave mentality.

Ideally if you fix the mentality problem of the Macedonians they will fix the Albanian problem on their own. Of course nothing is ever ideal. The Albanian threat is growing exponentially and if you pay close attention you can almost see its increase on a daily basis.

I tend to lean toward the thinking that the Albanian problem needs to be handled first in order to put full focus on the Macedonians. I believe that given the chance the Albanians will crush our little nation and then we will be in for a whole host of other problems.
How do I think a certain form of blind nationalism can help? Well it’s simple really. We know the Albanians are a threat, a real threat and a dangerous one. Most Macedonians regardless of political affiliation will agree on this.

In my opinion is it not possible for Macedonians from all walks of life to band together to fight a common threat without truly knowing why they should and what their rights and responsibilities are? It comes down to the realization that every Macedonian has a common enemy, regardless of what party, political system, class, or region they come from. The Albanians see all of us as one common enemy, we can’t we look at them the same way.

I’ll use the example of Struga in the recent local elections to explain what I am talking about further.

We know that the parties’ sdsm and vmro united into a single ballot for the Struga and Kicevo elections. Thus Macedonians had the choice of either Macedonian or Albanian Mayor. Economic and social positions went out the window and it was only us vs. them with the intention of beating them.

Of course in the long term, in a democratic society you want elections to be able economic and social issues and the qualifications of the candidates but in the short term wouldn’t this type of blind banding together suffice just for the purpose of countering the Albanization of Macedonia?

Just to make it clear, when I say enemy, threat, and fight I do not mean physically or in a war like fashion. I mean fight through democratic mechanisms.

I don’t think people in general need to know all the details and ideologies present in order to and together against a common foe.
If I a missing a key point please point it out to me. I will gladly discuss any points I have made and again this is not an endorsement. This is a theory that I am working on and I want to see where it leads when challenged. You can never really know if a bridge will hold up until you put pressure on it. That is what I am doing, inviting pressure to see where the weak points are and to then rethink it and see if it can be repaired or is the whole idea a waste.

[Risto the Great]

Gocka, no disrespect intended, but what is your point? Are you saying Macedonia needs to fix the Albanian problem first? Is that it?

[Vangelovski]

Gocka,

I'll stick to my key point for now - its more of a question. Macedonians have been indoctrinated (as part of the slave mentality) since Ottoman rule to think they are inferior and that all resistance is futile and undesirable (because it would lead to them being killed or face worse economic/social conditions than what already exists). The phrase "navednata glava sabja ne sece" is a perfect summary and has been repeated to each generation, including our own by the likes of Kiro Gligorov, Denko Maleski, Branko Crvenkovski, Ljubco Georgievski and Nikola Gruevski at the moment.

The question is, how do you expect Macedonians to 'band together' against the Albanian threat when:

a) their slave mentality prevents them from doing so as they fear the percieved reprecussions; and

b) the Macedonian Government encourages/scares them into not doing so and again, the slave mentality prevents Macedonians from resisting their government or electing one that would operate on a 'normal' basis - i.e., deal with security threats with the full force of the law and be able to do so by not making idiotic laws/decisions that prevent them from prosecuting extremists?

[George S.]

Gocka if you aren't for freeing the macedonians from their slave mentality how do you see them as a nation.Albeit a nation of slaves capitulating & comprimising themselves & their sovereignity.So if the slave mentality needs to be fixed first how are you going to do it???

[Gocka]

Gocka, no disrespect intended, but what is your point? Are you saying Macedonia needs to fix the Albanian problem first? Is that it?

I haven't really got one at this point. I am working through this to find some kind of short cut, something that can be done quickly in the short term to reverse the Albanization in Macedonia because it is becoming so extreme that unless it is reversed we may very well be having discussions in the near future about how to reestablish a Republic for the Macedonians because we will have lost this one. It's really an exercise rather than a conclusion, but I do hope to come to one

Gocka,

I'll stick to my key point for now - its more of a question. Macedonians have been indoctrinated (as part of the slave mentality) since Ottoman rule to think they are inferior and that all resistance is futile and undesirable (because it would lead to them been killed or face worse economic/social conditions than what already exists). The phrase "navednata glava sabja ne sece" is a perfect summary and has been repeated to each generation, including our own by the likes of Kiro Gligorov, Denko Maleski, Branko Crvenkovski, Ljubco Georgievski and Nikola Gruevski at the moment.

The question is, how do you expect Macedonians to 'band together' against the Albanian threat when:

a) their slave mentality prevents them from doing so as they fear the percieved reprecussions' and

b) the Macedonian Government encourages/scares them into not doing so and again, the slave mentality prevents Macedonians from resisting their government or electing one that would operate on a 'normal' basis - i.e., deal with security threats with the full force of the law and be able to do so by not making idiotic laws to prevent them from prosecuting extremists?

Good question, this is what I am looking for and I knew you would be up to the task. I agree, and it is painfully obvious even today that Macedonians avoid all types of confrontation and simply just keep their heads down. I do have a few observations I would like your opinion on.
It seem to me that Macedonians only avoid confrontation with "others", they don't avoid confrontation with their own families or even other Macedonians. It almost seems like they have a disdain for each other, something deep-rooted. I have never been able to put my finger on it but I always got that impression, that Macedonians don't generally like each other or even respect each other.

Do you think Macedonians are afraid of Albanian repercussions? They always seem to talk quite big, especially if you question them or point out the Albanization that is going on they always get defensive and macho. Now actions speak louder than words so I suppose that what they say doesn't mean much in comparison to the fact that they don't do much.

Sometimes I get the impression that laziness plays a much larger role in all this than we think. We are a pretty lazy people, we have Yugomania to thank for that of course.

My questions to you is:

Do you think Macedonians really fear repercussions from the Albanians and or their government?

Would you say laziness is just a big of a factor as is fear?

Who do you think they fear more, the government or the albanians?

Would you agree that Macedonians dislike each other for some reason?

If you do then where do you think it comes from?

So far we have came to the conclusion that Macedonians need to band together in order to counter the Albanization of ROM, but the state institutions discourage action and the mentality of the Macedonians also hold them back.

Right now I'm gravitating toward looking for a way to get Macedonians to respect each other, and band together for non political purposes, just to start off a positive path.

There is something deeper about this situation then a salve mentality. For example, if it was just that then why is there no solidarity among them? They can still show signs of solidarity but just have a reluctance to act based on fear of repercussion.; but they seem hesitant to extend a hand to each other, regardless of any plans to act on anything.

Would you agree?

Gocka if you aren't for freeing the macedonians from their slave mentality how do you see them as a nation.Albeit a nation of slaves capitulating & comprimising themselves & their sovereignity.So if the slave mentality needs to be fixed first how are you going to do it???

George, I didn't notice that I said anything about not wanting to free Macedonians from their slaves mentality, can you please point out where I said that?

I think the method for reversing the slave mentality is simple but it is painfully slow because you are working against centuries of indoctrination and even present day pressures.

How would you do it?

[George S.]

what i was saying about the slave mentality is that it has to be resolved,you cannot have history repeating over & over the macedonian people have to have resolve to move on.In one of the threads when i asked you you didn't like mention that slave mentality has to be tackled to awaken the people to free themselves.One person cannot do everything ,the people have to revolt & participate to free themselves.

[Risto the Great]

Gocka, I am not being flippant when I say war is the only solution. I cannot see how the current legal framework can be reversed without it.

Nothwithstanding this, I have heard from numerous Macedonians that the ethnic Albanians in many governmental departments are in fact typically more efficient than the Macedonians in the same positions. So perhaps a better question is are the Macedonians capable and desirous of controlling their own destiny. I have been under-whelmed for the last 20 odd years.

[Chiche]

"I haven't really got one at this point. I am working through this to find some kind of short cut, something that can be done quickly in the short term to reverse the Albanization in Macedonia" There are no short cuts to this 'Infestation', Those who live in the Republic of Macedonia need to have more children, simple as that! Those young or old fertile Macedonians who live in the Diaspora Countries, can help too, move to our beloved Home Land and start a Family.

[Risto the Great]

Chiche, more children from parents who are sheep?
That means more lambs.

1000 free willed Macedonians could do it in the republic if you ask me.

I would gladly explain the Macedonian Cause to 1000 free-willed Macedonians (or soon to be free-willed) and help fund them to make a difference. We are not talking about violence. I am talking about a conscience that drives the obligation.

[sydney]

Gocka,

I'll stick to my key point for now - its more of a question. Macedonians have been indoctrinated (as part of the slave mentality) since Ottoman rule to think they are inferior and that all resistance is futile and undesirable (because it would lead to them being killed or face worse economic/social conditions than what already exists). The phrase "navednata glava sabja ne sece" is a perfect summary and has been repeated to each generation, including our own by the likes of Kiro Gligorov, Denko Maleski, Branko Crvenkovski, Ljubco Georgievski and Nikola Gruevski at the moment.

The question is, how do you expect Macedonians to 'band together' against the Albanian threat when:

a) their slave mentality prevents them from doing so as they fear the percieved reprecussions; and

b) the Macedonian Government encourages/scares them into not doing so and again, the slave mentality prevents Macedonians from resisting their government or electing one that would operate on a 'normal' basis - i.e., deal with security threats with the full force of the law and be able to do so by not making idiotic laws/decisions that prevent them from prosecuting extremists?

That's it in a nutshell.

[Vangelovski]

I am talking about a conscience that drives the obligation.

Another nutshell

[Gocka]

Gocka, I am not being flippant when I say war is the only solution. I cannot see how the current legal framework can be reversed without it.

Nothwithstanding this, I have heard from numerous Macedonians that the ethnic Albanians in many governmental departments are in fact typically more efficient than the Macedonians in the same positions. So perhaps a better question is are the Macedonians capable and desirous of controlling their own destiny. I have been under-whelmed for the last 20 odd years.

Sometimes I feel the same way, but guess what, slaves don't really make good fighters, we learned that from the Persians and countless others. I think the shiptari would win a war. We are already at war if you ask me, it's just a countdown before it becomes a physical one.

I too am continually disappointed but we can't give up.

"I haven't really got one at this point. I am working through this to find some kind of short cut, something that can be done quickly in the short term to reverse the Albanization in Macedonia" There are no short cuts to this 'Infestation', Those who live in the Republic of Macedonia need to have more children, simple as that! Those young or old fertile Macedonians who live in the Diaspora Countries, can help too, move to our beloved Home Land and start a Family.

I tend to agree with RTG. What use are more Macedonians when they have no intent on changing anything.

We are already larger in number, we are the majority in our own country so if numbers are the only thing that counted we would be in control, but obviously we are not.

There's never a short cut to get to the end but sometimes you can find a short sighted short cut, that will temporarily help while you work on the end result.

[George S.]

gocka the lowest webb in nationalism.If you could call it nationalism would have to be in macedonia.If the vast macedonians don't want to change because the slave makeup is not doing anything & being complacent.At least the majority should be put on track & made to realize how they were on the wrong track.If there is nothing done then we alose all hope.At least we should see some sort of nurturing of the macedonian cause & with the removal of the slave mentality something may turn.I'm not saying it's goping to be easy.A revolution by the people is a must but you can't have it when the people aren't really ready.

[George S.]

talking of nutshells it may be more palatable for people to realise & come to know the truth about what is really going on.People may not be aware of their condition or unwilling to change.But seing in a nutshell they may comeout of their slave stupour.