The Croatian origin of the European 'cravat' or 'necktie'

[Soldier of Macedon]

Lol, doesn't cravat or kravat mean cow, as an extension of krava?

EDIT: Or is that when referring to it as kravata? :S

It's krava for 'cow', kravata for 'the cow', the -ta is just a definitive suffix.

That is because you are a peasant.
Us high-brows in Dolno Kotori would say "Kravata"

All I know is, vrska and vratovrska have a perfectly plausible etymology in Macedonian. Whereas the Macedonian Kotorci come from the Croat population in the Montenegrin Kotor, so who knows what you cross-breeds ramble on about down south. Apparently the below symbol is the coat of arms of Kotori, lol:

[Soldier of Macedon]

We say molif for pencil/pen, I think in the Vardar region they tend to say moliv or something entirely different.

I generally say moliv for a pencil, and stilo or penkalo for a pen.

[Bill77]

We say molif for pencil/pen, I think in the Vardar region they tend to say moliv or something entirely different.

Here is a word for pencil or pen that many of you might never have heard of. My Grandparents always used "plajmaz". I assume that would be the correct term. "stilo" "moliv" is to Greek for my liking (or mabe Greeks stole it from us) but selani use "plajmaz" when they call for something they need to write with. Note aswell that my Grandparents were born in Egejska Makedonia, therefor, they would have used the same term back there, and "stilo/moliv" (if it is Greek influence) would have came later (post 1913) in the Egej region, and spread north by the Begalci.

Why i assume its the correct Macedonian word? logic (if my brain is capable of) tells me "selski jazik" would be more pure, for the reason that they had less contact with "gradski lujge" who would have butchered our Macedonian language, possibly due to coming in contact and influenced by foreigners, that would have had frequented cities, an less to do with "sela".

[Soldier of Macedon]

I recall hearing another word for a pen when I was younger but can't remember exactly, it could have been that word which you just mentioned. I think moliv and stilo are loans from Greek.

[Phoenix]

I've heard them all...moliv(f), stilo, penkalo and definately plajmaz.

[Onur]

Whereas the Macedonian Kotorci come from the Croat population in the Montenegrin Kotor, so who knows what you cross-breeds ramble on about down south. Apparently the below symbol is the coat of arms of Kotori, lol:

Who are these Kotori you talking about? Are they Croats???

Btw that small moon+star on blue is the banner/flag of Avars from middle ages. Here is the flag of the currently Hungarian but formerly Turkic speaking Szekely community in Romania;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fl...ekely_Land.svg

I found this in google images;
The badges of Szekely soldiers in WW-2;

[Soldier of Macedon]

Who are these Kotori you talking about? Are they Croats???

No, it was just a joke. Although there is a Kotor in Montenegro where Croats live.

[makedonche]

No, it was just a joke. Although there is a Kotor in Montenegro where Croats live.

SoM
Lucky I read this last post before I replied to your first one with the alleged "Montenigran" origins!
Thank god you were joking! Us Kotorci came from Voden originally, the story passed down from generations is that the shepherds would take flocks to Gorno Kotori in spring/summer for greener pastures and feed and then walk back to Voden before winter, one year the winter came early and they were stuck in Gorno kotori so they built "tee-pees"(american indian style tents) and rode the winter out, once winter was over they realised it wasn't as bad as previously percieved so they settled there. Some years later as the village grew and more land was needed for farming and grazing, 5 brothers settled dolno Kotori, one of these brothers was RTG's ancestor and one of them was my ancestor!
(They looked around Bitola first but decided against it - the people there were uneducated).

[Onur]

No, it was just a joke. Although there is a Kotor in Montenegro where Croats live.

Ohhh so you sticked macedonian sun on top of croatian badge, ok ok.

Btw, i didn't noticed that moon+star on Croat coat of arms b4. I just checked wikipedia and look what it says about it;

The origin of the design has often been purported as being medieval. Historic tradition states it to be the arms of Stephen Držislav in the 10th century.[6]

On 21 December 1990, the post-socialist government of Croatia, passed a law prescribing the design created by the graphic designer Miroslav Šutej, under the aegis of a commission chaired by Nikša Stančić, then head of the Department of Croatian History at the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Zagreb. The new design added the five crowning shields which represent the historical regions from which Croatia originated. They are, from left to right:



1- The oldest known Croatian coat of arms: a golden six-pointed star (representing the morning star) over a silver moon on a blue shield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Croatia

Stephen Držislav (Croatian: Stjepan Držislav) (died 997) was a King of Croatia from 969 AD until his death in 997.[1] He was a member of the Trpimirović dynasty. He ruled from Biograd with Godemir as his Ban.

Ban was a title used in several states in central and south-eastern Europe between the 7th century and the 20th century.

Another assumption for the origin of the ban was a borrowing from a Turkic language,[2][3] from the Avar word bajan meaning "ruler of the horde", a derivation of the Proto-Turkic root *bāj- "rich, noble".[4] The term was also borrowed from a Turkic source into Mongolian, where it is preserved in a basically identical form to this day as bajan "rich".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Dr%C5%BEislav_of_Croatia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_%28title%29

But this is the Avar flag...Why would the Szekely people in today`s Romania use the same banner if it would be Croatian only??

[Soldier of Macedon]

They looked around Bitola first but decided against it - the people there were uneducated).

In light of their advanced civilisation, Bitolcani weren't accepting tee-pee dwellers & roaming goat herders from the south

[Risto the Great]

In light of their advanced civilisation, Bitolcani weren't accepting tee-pee dwellers & roaming goat herders from the south

Things must have changed recently. Last time I was in Bitola it was considered "European" to date a goat.

[ProMKD]

I only use Molif - pencil and Penkalo - Pen.

How do you pronounce plajkaz? Z like Zebra or Zh like Zhelevo?

[Bill77]

I only use Molif - pencil and Penkalo - Pen.

How do you pronounce plajkaz? Z like Zebra or Zh like Zhelevo?

its "plajmaz" with an m not k. The z like zebra.

[makedonche]

In light of their advanced civilisation, Bitolcani weren't accepting tee-pee dwellers & roaming goat herders from the south

SoM
hahaha.........The 'tee-pee' dwellers refused to move into the caves with the Bitolcani because the Bitolcani had their sheep in there with them, I think the Bitolcani migrated to New Zealand if I'm not mistaken!

[makedonche]

Things must have changed recently. Last time I was in Bitola it was considered "European" to date a goat.

RTG
hahahahaha....!!!!!!
and if you were upper class - MEP- you could even date sheep!