Ventilator

[makedonin]

makedonin, our narod in RoM...do they see the EU and NATO as an economic advantage? It is sad if that is the case.

Julie, that is the case. They see it so. Still my confidence is that they won't trade the name and identity for it.

Naturally, people have to be alerted for politicians who can do that, but I don't think that any politician has the guts to do such thing, cause they will not last long enough.

Why is it that RoM hates its diaspora so much? Its the diaspora that is fighting for the preservation of Macedonia, you say people are hungry, they are being brainwashed by bullshit political parties.

I don't think that anyone hates the diaspora. It is the wrong impression you get from my post.
Still, people don't have interest and time for Idealism when many of them have to fight for their daily bread.

Politician parties are doing their business, they steal money etc etc.

So if anyone is interested in the prosper of the Republic and poses as leader, they have to go there get involved into politics and change it from inside.

The attack from outside is achieving nothing. Only discord.

I was addresing the self apointed police that is attacking people around for a while.

The diaspora sends money (money does not fall from the sky here either, and the majority of us were born outside of Macedonia. Dont blame us for hanging onto our identity, we dont want it lost.

July, I know about that. But that is not the case. The Diaspora have been investing in parties that acctually don't do that for what they are paid.

Instead Diaspora has to get involved in business apoint it's own people and make it better if they want any effect.

I don't know if that is possible and if that will bring the effect, still the current conduct of things is leading nowhere.

My family, well, come back to what???? Still persecuted from the aegean, as most that were evicted and forced out of their homes. The very diaspora that fights for the basic human rights for RoM, do not want to see RoM go down. How can I go back there to the Aegean, I dont know Greek. That is insulting m=to me, and I will be persecuted.

We did not leave in droves, the ones that got away were forced out of their homeland, so it is a little insulting to say, come back home. There is no home for the Egejtsi batko.

I meant those who are posing as leaders and teachers and as Mr. know it all!

Let them get their citizenship get involved into politics and change things from inside, since they know it all, it has to be easy for them.

As for the persecution, I know it was hard on the Aegeans, and I can't tell how hard it had been.

But it was not easier on those in Vardar either. I know it from my olders and I know it from relatives persecuted by comunists.

So noone form the Macedonians had it really easy on them. It is not about competition, but when someone is playing the smart ass than he deserves to be slaped in the face.

As for RoM, the old man recently came back from visiting his family, leaving Australian dollars with them. They are lazy. They do not want to work, they expect everything handed to them on a silver platter and the mentality from my cousins on dads side is disgusting. Brainwashed. EU/NATO they will save us. ????????? Sure, and did you know that we have flying green pigs in the sky too?

It is only the half truth, but there is a truth in that.

The other part is that there is no real perspective and people are getting disapointed and discouraged and many many things too.

Dont knock the diaspora for trying to help. That is wrong. We are Macedonians too batko

The Diaspora is trying to help and there are many people who are great in that what they do.

I apologize if those decent people felt generalized by me, it was not my intention.

To whom I aimed are thos poson tongues who just spit poison and bring discord with out really taking any real initiative or bring any real constructiveness in the whole thing.

I have been kicking my self in the theet for long time not to say what I said cause I knew others would feel addressed even though they are not those whom I address.

Kako sho mi izgleda, Makedonska rabota ke si ostane. Ke se tepame megju sebe i nisho nema da postigneme. Na site im teche mozok od ushite i zatoa site ne ebat od strana. Ironija teshka.

Tja....

[Bratot]

Julie,

I appologize for interrupting your conversation with Makedonin, but I strongly disagree with your thinking on this:

Why is it that RoM hates its diaspora so much?

Stop inventing "so much" hatred and stop exaggerating the issues by generalization for all people, I got born and raised in RoM and my family is there and don't give me some stereotype labelling.

I didn't wanted to get involved in this discussion from the reasons that Makedonin already mentioned, and while I'm willing to comply with the arguments against the current state flag I can't stand such slanderous discussion and disrespect for our people.

You see them as some kind of a deviation from what is perceived as a normative behavior while ignoring the cultural disjunction that occured among Macedonians living in Macedonia and those in the Diaspora.

Mostly it's about the egocentric bias of some diaspora groups vs. the self-serving bias of people in Macedonia and mostly that is reason for this kind of conflicts among us.

Macedonia doesn't need EU as much as need the concurrence within its people about the priorities.

The problem for our economy can be solved by re-orientating to other partners, for ex. Russian market can replace the whole EU but to make that happen we need brave politicians.
We are limited in our maneuver like for ex. our export wine production in 90% is realizated on the German market only. It's the simmilar situation with other our products.

[julie]

Bratot, Makedonin said it best with this
Kako sho mi izgleda, Makedonska rabota ke si ostane. Ke se tepame megju sebe i nisho nema da postigneme. Na site im teche mozok od ushite i zatoa site ne ebat od strana. Ironija teshka.

[indigen]

Interesting question. Interesting question.

Originally Posted by makedonin
You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

If you do no see any problems with what you stated above, then there is a lot of ideological fog floating in your head and quite in line with what the "UMD" apologists such as"Buktop" and Co have been nauseatingly repeating for a long time here on MTO.

Well first of all, I never thought and felt the need to bow to the pretenders Gods and demi Gods of the Macedonians such as you or the likes of you. I never agreed upon such thing when I joined the forum and certainly won't agree on such thing.

You have no arguments and thus resort to baseless cheap shots.

Second of all. When I joined the Macedonian Truth Org. I was impressed by the integrity of the founders of this forum. I felt that I want to contribute at least a small part to the Macedonian truth that I felt inside of myself.

What was it that impressed you? Was it perhaps that Gruevski and Co were not seen as clear sell outs back in 2008 and that "UMD" was still either in vogue with some people or not seen in the same light as they are now. It is thanks to Pelister and Vangelovski, amongst some others, that the real ideological face of the "UMD" has been exposed for all to see. One can go back a couple of years (or even one) and see how these guys were viscously attacked for taking a stand to expose the ideological flaws in this supposedly messiah-like (or our saviour) Diaspora clique.

I felt that this platform is serving to discover the truth and reality about the Macedonian existence in it's all different facets with out fear what might come out of it. I found a constructive dialog and rich inquiring spirit that I admired. It was not subscription to a Dogma and everyones constructive opinion was welcomed.

Like the following reality:

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

If we are to accept this as valid, we may as well cease to exist!

I find it sad that now there are few of it's members, such as you, that think that they are above all, and proclaimed them selfs for the police of the truth and bash people for having different perspective of what they are trying to preach. They think that they know it all and have the right to play the teachers of the others.

As a Macedonian, I am entitled to challenge "your truth and reality" because it is not my truth and reality and this is the MTO where we need to sustain our claims with facts and not false assumptions, myths and lies.

Having said that, let me state this:

I will be more than happy to return the old flag. I also see many flows in the organizations such as the UMD and the Government structures that have been pointed out. That mile I walked gladly. Constructive inquiry is good.

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

Then you should make an effort revisit this ideological claim and maybe walk a few more miles to see the other side (and maybe the light). :-)

Then somehow things have changed. Attacking people and senseless critique took their place without any concern for reality circumstances and with out any basic understanding of what is really going on in R. of Macedonia. State symbol, no matter if they were forced upon us or not, have been slandered and people have been labeled traitros just for showing respect to the state they come from and belong to.

All the above is your (foggy) opinion only, as I see it! And it is you who claims to know all that was "really going on in R. of Macedonia" and only YOUR "REALITY" has validity. I am sorry to burst your illusion but there are many tens and hundreds of thousands of Macedonians who were witness to these events and did not see it that way then. Some may have become resigned to their fate and accept things as they are but to claim that it was a democratic choice or that we had a legitimate government that was capitulating "under duress" is a DISTORTION of TRUTH!

Recently some artificial divisions have been introduced, such as "Yugos" labeling etc.

Where have I been labelling Macedonians as such?

Well let me tell you this even if I run in danger of being bashed or even banned.

While those "Yugos" created the State with which you alledgedly so strongly indentify, you were sitting somewhere remotely in security with great perspectives for your family and your children.

Which state is that and what period are you talking about? You are also talking rubbish and making foolish emotional slanders and attacks without any justification.

Interestingly enough, you despise this "Yugos" for not complying to you Ideological Standars, still this "Yugos" are the only one from the Macedonians to succeed to create a Macedonian State, while you haven't done much for it, if anything.

Obviously you have someone else in mind and talking nonsense again.

This very same "Yugos" haven't changed the name of their State even though the political and international preasure is not to underestimate.

Now, that is very debatable indeed! :-)
Did you see the "UN ID Card" and do you know what name is used in all major international organisations?

And you and the likes of you criticize them for something that you neither had to endure nor endure in the moment.

I am a Macedonian and I endure a lot of denigration and humiliation thanks to traitors that you seem to be an apologist for. The Macedonian people are not the cause of the problem but those VASSAL that impose their rule upon them and carry out mass brainwashing and national deconstruction agendas. Please read my signature file links and you can realise how that is done (after all Todor Petrov lives in Macedonia and should have more validity for you!).

Most probably you are not even a citizen of the State and yet you think that your Identity is in danger because of anything.

I may or may not be but are you and do you live there?

Well let me tell you something. The Macedonian Identity prevailed even though there was no Macedonian State. It prevailed during the hardest hostile propaganda. So I am confident that it will prevail also all this turmoil, with out your "help". That is my confidence.

It is good that you brought this up because a certain "Strive" was using this same propaganda line to argue for a change of name recently (before he was banned). My friend, I did not realise how far ideologically retarded you are and that you are going to need MAJOR REHAB in order to achieve a moderate recovery and join the path of the Macedonian Cause! :-))) This false assumption is worthy of its own topic thread because there must surely be others who believe it and continue to repeat it and light needs to be shone on it and the truth to come out. The roots of this myth probably comes out of the ideology book of the Macedonian YugoSLAV VASSALS.

Just to give you some food for thought, what future do you see for Macedonians in 25-33% of Ramkovist Macedonia now under UCK rule?

You play concerned but aren't even living in the State, not to mention that you are not involved in the State building and certainly haven't proposed anything to better the situation.

So, if we are not living in the state, we have no say in anything then? Are you living there? As it is, I have proposed the abolition of the Ramkovist state and re-establishment of Macedonia as a Macedonian state only. To get there, we need to cross many ideological rivers and valleys and then to overcome our enemies. As for not being involved in "state building", that is debatable.

You are satisfied with your western comfort away from any effect that might take place if certain steps are taken, and have the gut to tell those "Yugos" they have no integrity!

We have heard these SDSM/VASSAL arguments time after time whenever the VASSALS are open to clear criticism and it is boring to hear it again from a senior MTO member. How do you figure that every Macedonian (or anyone living in the West) is living in comfort and ease?
Are there no poor people in the West and therefore poor Macedonians?

Those "Yugos" are criticized for wanting the same standard, same security and same perspective as you have. They are criticized for seeing them in the EU or NATO.

Macedonia is a poor developing country and if you used any logic at all you would realise that it can NOT become the WEST and enjoy its standard of living simply by joining NATO and the EU. You need to mature your view on this issue because it is TOTALLY FLAWED!

I don't think that those views are founded, yet I have never doubted that anyone will sell out the name of the country for join into this Organizations,

Obviously you are not reading attentively many of the threads that cover this issue and thus you have not seen that this is exactly what they are willing to do. Wake up!

and yet you bash them in your irrationalism for seeking the same for which reason your parents and grandparents have left their homeland.

Who do I bash?

If they were the great patriots, why didn't they come back or stay?

If I was rich, maybe I would have but how would somebody with insufficient language skills in Macedonian and little to no political connections survive? Should they become another burden on the welfare system and should they squander their assets to pay for overpriced housing that at times is on par with that of the West whilst wages in Mk are many times lower?

Those "Yugos" had to endure similar hardships as any Macedoinan from the other parts and still succeeded in building a Macedonian State.

Most of those that stayed had political connections and thus jobs and lived "the good Yugoslav life" on the loans that the West provided whilst it propped up SFRJ as an example of Liberal Socialism vis-a-vis the bureaucratic systems of the Warsaw Pact. When the loans were called in and the false props were no longer needed, the Yugo illusion ended in war and destruction.

If you were really concerned with the state of affairs, you would soon enough realize that your approach of attacking and ciriticizing does not really brings the fruits you was hoping.

You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine!

You would have realized that your tactics are not the right one.

Why? Did you do a poll or something to verify those conclusions? In any case, you can't say I really bothered you since this is the first time in a very long time that we have exchanged opposing views and it was you who was on the attack in this thread against Vangeolovski and presented a flawed ideological excuse for capitulation that I could not let pass without comment.

I don't say that the leaders are the best ones, I don't say that they have to learn more and have to be better in conducting the Macedonian affairs.

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

The above clearly condones ALL their misdeeds, IMO!

No that is not what I say, but if you really were worth for something, if you really were that for what you pose here, than you would go and live in the Republic and bring prosper to it. You pose like leader, and still don't have the guts to go in to the Republic and take acctual leadership.

Were you drinking when you wrote the above? :-)

If you realy were concerned, you would realized that you can't preach about Patriotism when those to whom you preach are with empty stomachs but yours if full.

I did not realise I was in a starving village, I think I am on MTO.

You would soon enough realize that the real tactics woud be finding the way how to fill their belly and give them perspective, security and all that what you enjoy for your self.

You are not going to get security or have enough to eat if every day you give away all you have (including your lunch) to the school bully or bullies.

FYI, I was born/raised (early childhood) in a village and I know what it is to be poor and to live in underdeveloped world conditions, more than you could probably imagine if you are relatively young and/or were born and raised in a city or town. Don't go preaching to me about how hard things are now! You want to fill your stomach - work the land and don't whinge like a kukavica!

So you pose as some sort of a teacher but don't have the real stuff to lead people.

I think you should NOT drink when you post on MTO! I am just an MTO member and expressing my views and opinions as I see them, some agree, others don't and yet more probably could not care either way. Such is life! :-)

With your recless attacks and tactics you don't accomplish anything, you even bring a discord between the people.

You are entitled to your opinion but is of little relevance here.

The Macedonian Truth Organization that I gladly joined did not stand for what you represent. At least I thought that this was the case. I find it disappointing that things have changed.

What can I say, things never stay the same. Do you think if I went to some pub I frequented twenty years ago that it would still be the same crowd or the same atmosphere today? :-)

I will be gladly proved wrong.

Definitely wrong with the following conclusion!:

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

Teacher needs help with this student!

So pochit,
I.

[makedonin]

I was thinking if I should reply and waste my time once more, but hey I could not let it go, not yet.

If you do no see any problems with what you stated above, then there is a lot of ideological fog floating in your head and quite in line with what the "UMD" apologists such as"Buktop" and Co have been nauseatingly repeating for a long time here on MTO.

Can you shoot only with UMD blanks? You are on the wrong address.

I see the Idealogy you talk about,it is very shiny so that I can't miss it! I could even wish it would be true.

What you miss is the garbage smell of the hard reality! But you could not smell it cause you are too far away to do so.

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

First of all, I still see the Republic of Macedonia being existent. It may be not perfect, it may be not as we would wish it, and yet it prevailed. It is a starting point. But you are starting on the wrong end. As long as the people are disapointed and hungry, they won't bother with your Idealogy, however this may be good or perfect.

Second, yes we were forced to change the Flag.

What I wonder is, if it wasn't for that and instead we chose another flag from the beginning of the indepenence, what would have been your argument? What would have been complaining.

You are farting hot air.

Macedonians have used many flags through out the history and I don't see you slandering them one by one.

Let me tell you what will happen in reality from which you are light years away.

When someone from the Republic of Macedonia hear you about what you are babbling, he will nod his head and say "who the fuck are you to tell me what to do".

Second thing he will laugh you out for your bad Macedonian language.

Third he may agree with your slander about the Ventilator only under the terms that you buy him a bear. He will do this so that you don't even notice of it.

Or if you bother him too much, he will fluently agree with you just to get rid of you, and than go his way and do what he thinks he wants to do.

At last he will go home and tell his wife about the crazy dude he met early this day!

What did you accomplish? Nothing. Time to change your tactics.

You have no arguments and thus resort to baseless cheap shots.

All I said is that I don't feel the need to comply to your Standars and I don't really care what you think about it.

It was no argument, it was a reply to your obvious reason why you asked the questin about my presence on the MTO forum.

So, if we are not living in the state, we have no say in anything then? Are you living there?

I am born there, lived almost my whole life there except for the last seven years or so, have my whole extended family there and have my Macedonian citizenship and no other. I go there on regular bases and plan to return when I see it right for my family.

So I am bound to Macedonia more than you ever will be. I and my whole family will be effected if anything will get started there.

I am sorry to burst your illusion but there are many tens and hundreds of thousands of Macedonians who were witness to these events and did not see it that way then. Some may have become resigned to their fate and accept things as they are but to claim that it was a democratic choice or that we had a legitimate government that was capitulating "under duress" is a DISTORTION of TRUTH!

Escaping in numbers again. Who are this tousand of Macedonians! Those who don't live in R. of Macedonia?
You not being in the R. of Macedonia would know that not everyone have seen the events like I say?

Good laugh.

Noone was talking about some democratic choice.

And the flag is still there.

The hard reality!

Still there were Macedonians who fought under that Flag, who died under that Flag.

Only for that reason I would shit you out for slandering the Flag.

As it is, I have proposed the abolition of the Ramkovist state and re-establishment of Macedonia as a Macedonian state only. To get there, we need to cross many ideological rivers and valleys and then to overcome our enemies. As for not being involved in "state building", that is debatable.

Idealogy won't help you when noone will listen to you.

That is exactly what you can't comprehend. If you would go in Macedonia and start babbling shit like the following point, I am sure of it, you are not going to last long enough to even explain your self.

Also what is debatable about the "state building". Were you there when we all called for independent Macedoni? Were you there to defend it's integrity. Are you involved in the Politics of R. of Macedonia.

I doubt it.

Why weren't you there to stop the Ramkovist agreement, a prodigy child like you should have accomplished that with out effort.

You made me curious about the new Macedonian state!

Tell me, do you plan building clones who will comply with your Ideology and will, who will call out "Heil Indigen!" ?

Will you start a Macedonian clone wars?

I would suggest instead clones you better start off with androids. They don't have to be feeded and don't care about misery or dieing.

Did you see the "UN ID Card" and do you know what name is used in all major international organisations?

And the UN ID Card is that what would Identify me!? Don't be so stupid.

It might be annoying seeing that bullshit, maybe that battle is lost, but the war is still on going.

Or you don't feel Macedonian enough cause the "UN ID Card" is not saying so? Talking about souveregnity.

The name of R. of Macedonia won't be changed just because someone is not recognizing. And as long as we are awaiting for someone approval and recognition, we ain't gonna be sovereign either.

So, the war is raging and won't cease as long as there are Macedonians who will call their Country Macedonia.

I am a Macedonian and I endure a lot of denigration and humiliation thanks to traitors that you seem to be an apologist for.

Traitors. Is that all you have to say? You endured. And the others were spared from it?

Apologist of whom?
Take your head out of your ass.

The Macedonian people are not the cause of the problem but those VASSAL that impose their rule upon them and carry out mass brainwashing and national deconstruction agendas. Please read my signature file links and you can realise how that is done (after all Todor Petrov lives in Macedonia and should have more validity for you!).

I would agree about that. And yet I see you attacking the Macedonian people and their current State symbols. Symbols under which many Macedonians have lost their lifes. You show no respect of them, most likely cause you consider them brainwashed. And yet when you insult them you are just distancing them from you.

Go into Macedonia, get involved in the Political scene, get elected for President and start your own brainwashing!

Macedonian YugoSLAV VASSALS.

Wash your mouth you are drooling shit , you may choke.... There are many decent people who don't care about Yugoslavia me included!

We have heard these SDSM/VASSAL arguments time after time whenever

Who is the we here! Skiping into the imaginary numbers I see! Typical Vangelovski statement.

And for your information, I vote for the working party!

Can you vote in R. of Macedonia? Ooops my fault, you ain't citizent!

Macedonia is a poor developing country and if you used any logic at all you would realise that it can NOT become the WEST and enjoy its standard of living simply by joining NATO and the EU. You need to mature your view on this issue because it is TOTALLY FLAWED!

Living in EU, I know exactly what EU is. I know exactly what for EU stands for. I know it ain't the promissing land for what the Macedonians are holding it.

Yet, your Ideological Crusade won't bring them from wishing what they want.

They won't listen to you, cause you preach to them something while they are hungry, but you have had your meal today!

But I ain't expecting you to understand that!

If I was rich, maybe I would have but how would somebody with insufficient language skills in Macedonian and little to no political connections survive?

Why is that so? Why didn't you learn the language properly. For a proud Macedonian I would be ashamed to admit that my language skills are insufficient.

How do the others in R. of Macedonia survive? That is a interesting question.

Ah OK, now you have said it, If you were rich!.

The old good glue, the money. Well if all the Macedonians in R. of Macedonia were rich, they would have been ready for your Ideology and would have swallowed it whole heartedly.

I think you should now understand what I was saying all along. If not you are a lost case for me.

Should they become another burden on the welfare system and should they squander their assets to pay for overpriced housing that at times is on par with that of the West whilst wages in Mk are many times lower?

Well you see, the few rats had abandon ship and now they want the rest to sink!

Most of those that stayed had political connections and thus jobs and lived "the good Yugoslav life" on the loans that the West provided whilst it propped up SFRJ as an example of Liberal Socialism vis-a-vis the bureaucratic systems of the Warsaw Pact. When the loans were called in and the false props were no longer needed, the Yugo illusion ended in war and destruction.

That is a good excuse. I knew it from the start!

My parants were never rich, neither had good political connection nor were in the so called middle class, and yet they stayed there!

I know many such cases. The only one who really leave abroad were those who either had some relatives there or wanted to go earn some money to by them self ficco or 101 car and come back.

However out of some not known reasons they stayed.

That ever.

You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine!

Wow, some reasonable thoughts come out of your mouth.

You say that and still you attack and call people names when they express their opinion and want them to subdue to yours.

Traitors or Vassals, to name few.

Why? Did you do a poll or something to verify those conclusions?

You only have to be sane enough and carring enough to see it for your self. Instead you are deluded and fed up with ideology and divorced any reality.

If you were carring for the people of R. of Macedonia, you would have known it, you don't need polls or anything of the sort.

In any case, you can't say I really bothered you since this is the first time in a very long time that we have exchanged opposing views and it was you who was on the attack in this thread against Vangeolovski and presented a flawed ideological excuse for capitulation that I could not let pass without comment.

I did not attack Vangelovski. My initial post was directed to RtG, I quoted him. You can see it for your self here and his response here. I wanted his opinion and stated my concern.

He did that.

However the "Police of Truth" called Vangelovski jumped in and started to bother, although he did not had to do anything. He knows that I can't even stand him, so he should have known that I would have an alergic reaction against his butting in.

You did not bothered me at first. But than you had to butt in and defend your clone brother! So now I am just questioning your integrity. I don't see much of it. What I have expecting anyways.

As a Macedonian, I am entitled to challenge "your truth and reality" because it is not my truth and reality and this is the MTO where we need to sustain our claims with facts and not false assumptions, myths and lies.

That is fair enough. And still you lack of any touch with reality in Macedonia.
So how are you to challenge something that you don't have a clue?
Other than that you don't have tackt to discuss things and have something annoying about your arogance how you come accross.

Were you drinking when you wrote the above?

Do you negate it that you pose like a leader. Your very tone of addressing people is arrogant. You pose like you know it all and attack others for not complying to your mindset.

I did not realise I was in a starving village, I think I am on MTO.

And you are judging people in R. of Macedonia who are starving.

You are entitled to your opinion but is of little relevance here.

Yours have far more relevance. At least in your wishfull mind.

Definitely wrong with the following conclusion!

And your proof is... let me think..... equals zero.

The very last:

It is good that you brought this up because a certain "Strive" was using this same propaganda line to argue for a change of name recently (before he was banned).

Show me where I said that we are to change the name?

I just expressed my confidence in the Macedonian identity and it persistence.

Look into the History section and prove me that I don't have right. There was no Macedonian State before 1945 and yet the Macedonian Identity prevailed.

You really losing it when you see Propaganda all over the place.

And as for the banning. If the Administrators feel that they should ban me, they don't even need to warn me or tell me the reason.

They can do as they see it right.

Just because of that, I won't stop telling you what major bullshit you are babbling. I won't hold my breath while the likes of you slander the current state symbols, so if that is wrong, than I would be gladly banned.

So zdravje i teraj si go pato

[Risto the Great]

Makedonin, I am concerned that you seem to be feeling some resentment about some of these issues. I have the impression some of us might be understood to be "hardliners" making unreasonable demands on Macedonians in Macedonia. It concerns me because I like you and something or possibly many things seem to have tipped you away from the MTO.

I have said a few things in the past that might have upset some Macedonians. One issue being the simple fact that, given the suffering of many Macedonians in Macedonia, I have never seen them rise as one to say enough is enough! Not in the last 100 years anyway. They won't (didn't) rise for the flag, they didn't rise for the Ohrid agreement, they didn't rise for the interim agreement. They didn't rise in the 2001 war. In fact, Macedonia has gone backwards since the first day of its independence in terms of sovereignty. This upsets people to hear it. The simple answer is "you live here and then tell us what we should do" but that is simply not answering the real question.

When I previously talked about the pendulum swinging too far against Macedonians, I also mentioned that when it swings into favour for Macedonians I might relax some of my demands. We are nowhere near that.

To say we now accept the Greek imposed flag is especially demeaning to me because my people are still having to lie about their identity to be good Greeks in Greece.

Why shouldn't Macedonia be the home for Macedonians? 30 years ago (in Yugoslavia) you were not likely to jump and and shout out about how proud you are of being Macedonian. Who is stopping Macedonians now. They almost whisper their identity on the world stage.

If Indigen's Macedonian is bad, I might as well start learning Albanian. It takes me 5 times longer to read any writing in Macedonian (as opposed to English) and I sound nothing more than a village idiot when I write in Macedonian. I hope we don't measure Macedonian-ness this way.

My father dedicated his life to Macedonian matters even at the expense of his family on many occasions. I am sure he became quite disillusioned in the last few years. I wonder if things will ever change in Macedonia. The only way they will is for Macedonians to embrace what it means to be a sovereign nation.

Everyone can tell us that we don't know what it is like over there. But the Macedonians with food on their table would rather be screwing whores on the Bulgarian border than worrying about these matters. Blame apathy, not us in the Diaspora for not understanding.

If we tell them they care about a flag imposed on them by Greece, let them think about it for a while. If it upsets them to hear it from outsiders, they should find out who has done more for Macedonia. If they say "we live here, we know what to do and you should support us" .... I will say you have 100% support from me as long as we are working for the Macedonian Cause (as defined).

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

You are only describing a certain type of Macedonian...including yourself it appears. How about the Macedonians in Macedonia that refuse to accept oppression and seek to develop a FREE republic governed by FREE citizens? You are yet to account for them.

Secondly, the principles that are promoted by activists here are UNIVERSAL in that they apply to ALL humans. They don't just apply to "well-fed diaspora Macedonians". Your vacuous, and frankly VASSAL, repetition that Macedonians in Macedonia do not care about these principles and that the diaspora does not have any legitimate role to play in promoting these principles in Macedonia is nothing more than childish idiocy. ALL humans have a role in promoting these principles in ALL places. That makes our moral obligation even more pressing.

What is most ironic is that YOU use YOUR FREEDOM OF CHOICE to voluntarily accept the negation of OUR collective freedom. If YOU want to accept human SLAVERY, do it on YOUR OWN BEHALF and cease from attempting to convince US to do the same.

[indigen]

I was thinking if I should reply and waste my time once more, but hey I could not let it go, not yet.

I have the same view but there is a need for clarification and thus I will answer, or point out, what I think needs to be said and you can go scratch your head if you don't like that!

The following is the core issue regarding the flag and how it was imposed:

They signed under duress (as well as stupidity), it is not enforceable.

I doubt that there was ANY DURESS for SDSM but rather it was their PLAN and COMMITMENT to their "IC" backers for turning a blind eye to (and ENDOREMENT of) all the electoral FRAUD in the RIGGED 1994 elections. What was the benefit for SDSM, one might ask? I would answer that one should imagine a morally and politically corrupt regime having total political control of a state in the early stages of economic transition from a socialist economy to a capitalist one, where privatisation of all the state and commonly owned assets is about to go full-throttle mode.



Monument to Crvenkovski's (corruption) achievments - Oktopod!

19.10.94

Do
Pretsedatelot na Sobranieto na Republika Makedonija

Поради масовното и драстично кршење на изборната постапка и директната инволвиараност на државата во многубројните извршени повреди на законите и процедурата, кои што се образложени во приговорите на кандидатите за пратеници и во приговорите на Демократската партија и ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

БАРАМЕ


1. Поништување на Изборите `94;
2. Обезбедување на сите потребни услови за одржување на законски и фер избори;
3. Оставка на Владата и формирање на чиновничка Влада, која ќе спроведе регуларни избори;
4. Оставка на Државната изборна комисија;
5. Одвојување на претседателските од парламентарните избори.

Доколку овие барања не бидат исполнети до 22 Октомври (сабота), до 19 часот, не гледаме причина за наше учество на вториот круг на Изборите `94.

ВМРО – Демократска партија за
македонско национално единство

Претседател
Љупчо Георгиевски


Демократска партија (ДА)

Претседател
Петар Гошев


факсимил копија на оргиналниот документ во формат на слика (image file) тука


Za Potsetuvanje - Razno

M., care to tell us if you were at least 18 years old and was interested in the politics of the day in 1994?

Main point that you have NOT, or have not wanted to be, addressed is THE FACT THAT the 1994 ELECTIONS WERE FRAUDULENT AND RIGGED and that SDSM + ALLIES RULED SOLO from 1994 to 1998! Thus, in the main, DPMNE and Democratic Party (led by Petar Goshev) members and supporters saw that "Government" as ILLIGITAMATE and they numbered in the tens and hundreds of thousands!!! They immediately collected over 150,000 signatures in support of a REFERENDUM calling for new elections and a technical provisional government to implement them. These calls were ignored and every element of the state machinery was used to undermine and suppress any effective opposition. At that time the VENTILATOR was opposed and denigrated by the DPMNE and DP supporters.

Therefore any political capitulations committed by this ILLEGITIMATE REGIME of 1994-1998 can RIGHTFULLY be claimed to be ILLEGAL and should be declared null and void.

----------

„Вентилаторот“ и грее и лади



А политичките околности беа повеќе од сложени. Знамето беше сменето две години по прифаќањето на референцата БЈРМ и само два дена по атентатот врз претседателот Киро Глигоров, кога целата јавност беше окупирана со тој немил настан. На 5 октомври 1995 година Собранието го изгласа новиот закон за знамето со консензус, но тоа беше парламентарен состав без опозиција, во кој членуваа само пратеници од тогашниот Сојуз за Македонија (СДСМ, Либерална партија и Социјалистичка партија) и претставници на Албанците во земјава. Притисокот за промена, секако, доаѓаше од Грција.

[...]

Тито Петковски е еден од тројцата пратеници што беа членови на Собранието и во 1995 година и денес.

Според него, треба сé уште да се работи, особено со младите генерации, за новото знаме да биде целосно прифатено.

- На јавните манифестации често се сретнува ѕвездата од Вергина, а најмногу ја користат млади луѓе. Нивните мотиви главно се националистички. Кога се промени знамето, тоа беше направено за да се покаже конструктивност кон јужниот сосед, за односите да ни станат попријателски. Затоа треба образовните установи, но и политичките партии, да поработат со своите подмладоци за ова прашање - додава Петковски.

Еден од ретките политичари што активно се залагаат за да се врати старото знаме е Тодор Петров, лидерот на Светскиот македонски конгрес, организација што најмногу комуницира со нашинците во светот.

- Речиси сите македонски организации во соседството и во далечните земји како свој симбол го користат 16-кракото сонце. Новото знаме не го признаваа ниту тогаш ниту денес. Има голем број иницијативи да се напуштат преговорите со Грција и да се укине Привремената спогодба, а со тоа и да се врати старото знаме - рече Петров.

Тој раскажува како тогашните политичари тврделе дека го трампаат знамето за меѓународното признавање на уставното име, но останале без двете.

[…]

Неодамна шпанскиот весник „20 минутос“ спроведе гласање за најубаво знаме, на кое победи Мексико, а Македонија никаде ја немаше. Од првите десет на тој список, дури осум се земји од шпанското говорно подрачје.

Автор: Гоце Трпковски Фотографија: Маја Јаневска - Илиева


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коментари

Македонче
Новото знаме не побудува никакви чуства во мене. Не го прифаќам, но едноставно е, не се бунам затоа што за тоа не е дојдено врeме . А Денот ќе дојде . За знамето од Кутлеш негувам уште посилни чуства затоа што е прво знаме со кое повторно ја изразивме слободата и независноста на Македонија . За мене ова знаме остана како наше државното знаме , иако привремено го променија пред неколку години . Од тие причини знамето од Кутлеш станува како знаме со кое историски државата Македонија и народот Македонски се самоидентификуваат во континиум .

строиник
Единствено македонското знаме со Златно-Жолта 16-зрачна Ѕвезда на Црвена основа ( "Сонцето од Кутлеш-Вергина"), e СИМ(В)БОЛ за слобода, континуитет, иднина, безвремена потврда за идентитетот на Македонецот. Тоа е моето знаме, тоа е знамето на Македонија и така ќе остане засекогаш. Сегашното пак "официјално" знаме, претставува сончев ЗНАК и такви знаци ги има на секаде низ светот, да, ги има и во Македонија, да, ние сме деца на светлината, поклоници на сончевината, но сепак тоа е САМО знак, претставен пред 15 години како знаме, усвоено ПОД ПРИТИСОК, не со СЛОБОДНА ВОЛЈА и ентузијазам како што го усвоивме Вечното ни знаме со 16-зрачната златно-жолта ѕвезда на црвена основа, кое како симбол го наоѓаме, не само во Кут-Леш, туку и во охридско, гевгелиско...на секаде низ Македонија....Има огромна разлика меѓу симб(в)ол и знак. Во симболот ја наоѓаме сопствената срж, си им-аме во-(и)-лја своја, сме ја пронашле нашата смисла на земјата во име на светлината. Симболот истакнува повеќе зборови, дела, слики, времиња, мистика ако сакете препознатлива за носителот на сим(в)болот..., додека знакот е менлив, разбирлив само во одредено време и дури и да опстои низ годините тој многу лесно може да го смени изворното значење. Па нели, сегашново "сонце", може да е и вентилатор, ветерница, развиен занк за нуклеарен отпад итн, итн....Македонија ќе ја зачне слободата, кога на скопската тврдина ќе се вее нашето знаме со 16-зрачна златно-жолта ѕвезда на црвена основа. Единствениот МАКЕДОНСКИ СИМБОЛ за сите времиња

Стеф
Вентилаторот е знаме на Македонија. А од друга страна го мразам зошто не е го осеќам како свое. Не ги сакам од СДСМ поради знаме и мал милион други причини. Јас би сакал да се смени знамето на Македонија ова не го сакам наметнато е со сила и вештачко е.

Jordan-Lerin
Ventilatorot nikogash nema da go prifatime kako nacionalno zname na Makedonskiot narod.

smislov
Ako Тито Петкостки е македонец и добро го владее својот мајцин македонски јазик, ке знае дека "ѕвездата од Вергина" е од Кутлеш.

ЗНАМЕТО ОД КУТЛЕШ
Симболот на сонцето е македонски од Македонија. Грција го поседува само 100 години. Секогаш со гордост ке го носам. Едноставно е симбол на Македонија. А Македонија не е грчка.

veta
nemase ocenka 0 pa zatoa stavivn 1 ovaa zname nikoj ne go saka ama go prfativme zatoa sto ni bese naredeno da ne se vrakame vo nasata anticka istoria,za da gi zadovolime grcite i nasite domasni kodosi ipredavnici.

http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=10510958239&id=9&prilog=0&setIzdanie=22100

For fair use only.

Previous extensive discussion at this thread: ventilator

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3315&page=2

-----------
The only thing that Macedonians with some basic self-respect are morally obliged to do is to reject the VENTILATOR because it represents national shame and capitulation. The same applies to the UCK constitution and "Ramkoven dogovor", the "Temporary Reference" and the "Interim Accord".
----------

First of all, I still see the Republic of Macedonia being existent. It may be not perfect, it may be not as we would wish it, and yet it prevailed. It is a starting point. But you are starting on the wrong end. As long as the people are disapointed and hungry, they won't bother with your Idealogy, however this may be good or perfect.

I don't know about that analysis? Was it not said that "seeds germinate best on rotten ground" and were the Macedonians better of economically during WWII and in 1903 when they rose up in arms? There is no need for anyone to starve in Macedonia as the country is capable of growing enough food to feed itself and then some more.

Compare Macedonia to Slovenia and Croatia and see who is better off and figure out why! As for the republic, it basically has its name for home use and even there it has been renamed from Macedonia/Makedonija to Republika Makedonija and the people to "Citizens" (Gragjani).

Secondly, Macedonia CEASED to be a MACEDONIAN NATIONAL STATE IN 2001 and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a SERIOUS DELUSIONAL STATE OF MIND.

Second, yes we were forced to change the Flag.

You did NOT answer WHY SDSM and allies voted for it in 1992 whilst and embargo was imposed. Why was this the case?

Once you figure this out, you might realise that we were not "forced to change the flag" at all but that it was part of a scheme to other ends! I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU CHEW OVER THIS PUZZLE if you want to come to the "truth"!

What I wonder is, if it wasn't for that and instead we chose another flag from the beginning of the indepenence, what would have been your argument? What would have been complaining.

It has been clearly stated in the "VENTILATOR" thread relating to this topic by the likes of Vangelovski and Aleksandrov, amongst others, that a freely chosen flag would not have been objectionable even if something else was preferable and would be accepted as a legitimate state symbol, much like the "Denar" currency is. The objections are twofold, it was imposed by an ILLEGITIMATE REGIME and REPRESENTS CAPITULATION.

Macedonians have used many flags through out the history and I don't see you slandering them one by one.

See above.

When someone from the Republic of Macedonia hear you about what you are babbling, he will nod his head and say "who the fuck are you to tell me what to do".

It depends who they are as I can read many Macedonian commentators who share (some of) my views but may be a bit more guarded in what they say, which is understandable. Secondly, I don't think I am babbling about anything but stating my views on MTO. I am also pretty sure that most Macedonians know that the 2001 Ramkoven Dogovor was a capitulation and what the consequences of that were and will continue to be. What is you take on the Ramkoven?

Second thing he will laugh you out for your bad Macedonian language.

So you may think that but, in the main, I got praise for how well I could speak Macedonian given the fact that I spent several decades (from early childhood) living and working in an English language environment.

I am born there, lived almost my whole life there except for the last seven years or so, have my whole extended family there and have my Macedonian citizenship and no other. I go there on regular bases and plan to return when I see it right for my family.

Being Macedonian is NOT a prerequisite to where you are born, what your surname, religion (or if you have one at all) or political preference is and what language you are fluent in. Nor does one need to have a deep knowledge and understanding of traditional Macedonian folk culture in order to be a Macedonian and it is simply enough to have Macedonian ancestry and be proud of your identity. A person of Macedonian ancestry anywhere in the world is entitled to defend his Macedonian identity and all that it encompasses against anyone who undermines it regardless where they may be from.

I was born there too and have some extended family living there, similar to many others. There is a difference between the emigrants to Europe and those that went to Australia in that the first lot were able to return for summer holidays and keep in good repair their homes and, more than not, they had their families back home whilst the second lot left for good with the whole family and many of their homes fell into disrepair, making it harder to return even for holidays as it would be expensive to live in hotels for several months with the family and therefore visit much less frequently. Thus those from Europe have their homes in Macedonia to return to during summer holidays or when they retire whilst many migrants from rural villages that ended up in Australia in the 1960s and 1970s are unable to do the same as their former homes have fallen into disrepair and ruin.

Lastly, if I have citizenship or not is of little importance as I do not want to recognise a Ramkovist Macedonia as legitimate.

So I am bound to Macedonia more than you ever will be. I and my whole family will be effected if anything will get started there.

You may be a bit more bound than I (as your whole family lives there) but that does not give you or anyone else the right to sell out, DESTROY or UNDERMINE the MACEDONIAN INHERITANCE of EVERY MACEDONIAN LIVING or DEAD!

Secondly, what is the effect of the RAMKOVEN DOGOVOR for the Macedonians under UCK RULE? Did those that "bought" the temporary appeasement of UCK FACISTS do it at the expense of other Macedonians left behind enemy lines in the 25-33% of Macedonia under what is effectively foreign occupation and rule?

Escaping in numbers again. Who are this thousands of Macedonians! Those who don't live in R. of Macedonia?

See above!

You not being in the R. of Macedonia would know that not everyone have seen the events like I say?

We had the spokesperson for VMRO-DPMNE give us weekly reports on radio here in Sydney (and Australia) during this period and he surely knew more than you did. The presenter of that program that ran from 1993 through to 1995 is another MTO member and he had regular interviews with other leading opposition political figures who were informing and enlightening us here much more than you were able to be because of the media monopoly of the ILLEGITIMATE SDSM REGIME! Some of us were also subscribed to opposition magazines plus our local media carried much more info from the opposition as well. Thus I can easily say that we had more insight into what politics were at play than those in RoM watching MTV or reading Nova Makedonija and the like.

And the flag is still there.
The hard reality!

And you have VASSALS running a country which they turned from a MACEDONIAN NATIONAL STATE into a RAMKOVIST NON-MACEDONIAN ONE! That is the "reality" you are cheering for!

Still there were Macedonians who fought under that Flag, who died under that Flag.

Another one of those EMOTIONAL MYTHS used to justify use of SYMBOLS of CAPITULATION! I am not going to argue it here as it has already been covered previously in the "VENTILATOR" thread but will keep it in mind for inclusion in a myth-busting thread that should be raised sooner or later here on MTO. What excuse did you use for period of 1995-2000 then? I can tell you because I heard it many times from the SDSM supporters and apologists - it is the state flag and we must respect the state. What respect did they show the state when they sold us out in 1993 and 1995 and gave away our only democratically chosen state flag of a sovereign and independent Macedonian state - the 16-ray Kutlesh (Macedonian) Sun Flag together with our indigenous heritage and name?

Only for that reason I would shit you out for slandering the Flag.

As I said, this is another one of those MYTHS we need to bust with more elaboration and I hope the MTO team will assist and keep it in the soon to do list.

Idealogy won't help you when noone will listen to you.

The struggle belongs with the younger generation and time will tell what they will or will not listen to, act upon or actually say in leading the way forward! I am just trying to share some info on Macedonia and Macedonian issues that is not available online and that may be useful to that younger generation in the coming struggle. As well as that, yes, I will express my views that reflect my ideology and so be it if someone or noone takes notice of any of them.

Also what is debatable about the "state building". Were you there when we all called for independent Macedoni? Were you there to defend it's integrity. Are you involved in the Politics of R. of Macedonia.
I doubt it.

I was on streets of Australia calling for recognition of Macedonia by the world and defending and promoting our heritage and linking up (with their full co-operation and appreciation) with internal political forces pushing for an independent and sovereign state of Macedonia whilst those that sold us out were trying to keep us in the old federation and hence were happy to see us in the UN as former "YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC of Macedonia" as a "Temporary Reference" for two months only! And as Petar Goshev stated in 1994 (at the 1 year "anniversary" of the "TR"): "There is nothing more permanent than the temporary".

Why weren't you there to stop the Ramkovist agreement, a prodigy child like you should have accomplished that with out effort.

Moronic gibberish!

You made me curious about the new Macedonian state!
Tell me, do you plan building clones who will comply with your Ideology and will, who will call out "Heil Indigen!" ?

If the vast majority of Macedonian are anything like you and ideological work fails to raise their consciousness in order to restore Macedonia to being a state of Macedonians (or even parts of it), then they will either become the Shiptar's bitches, take Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek citizenship and go to those countries or high-tail it out to Europe or some other destination.

Take it from me, only a KOSOVO FUTURE awaits Ramkovist Macedonia!

And the UN ID Card is that what would Identify me!? Don't be so stupid.

Yes, you can look in the mirror and call yourself Macedonian if you like but the world will call you by the nationality derived from whatever Rep. of X will be called.

It might be annoying seeing that bullshit, maybe that battle is lost, but the war is still on going.

The WAR was lost the minute we engaged in the name game! We can only start to fight if we end (declare null and void) the capitulationist agreements relating to the name issue and fight the WAR for our national sovereignty with all our might, come what may! When Macedonia does that, call me and I will gladly go to any front-line regardless whether you go or not.

So, the war is raging and won't cease as long as there are Macedonians who will call their Country Macedonia.

Macedonia was more or less lost in 2001! You need to inform yourself what the Ramkoven means.

And yet I see you attacking the Macedonian people and their current State symbols. Symbols under which many Macedonians have lost their lifes. You show no respect of them, most likely cause you consider them brainwashed. And yet when you insult them you are just distancing them from you.

Who do I show no respect to? Do you know what symbols "DOSTOINSTVO" uses and who they represent? Maybe you need to inform yourself more by reading the "Ventilator" thread?

Go into Macedonia, get involved in the Political scene, get elected for President and start your own brainwashing!

Another idiotic mindless statement! I am having my say on an international forum with members from all around the world, including from Macedonia, and ideas and information can travel far and wide.

Can you vote in R. of Macedonia? Ooops my fault, you ain't citizent!

I may be able to but I have no intention in giving validity to the Ramkovist State.

Living in EU, I know exactly what EU is. I know exactly what for EU stands for. I know it ain't the promissing land for what the
Macedonians are holding it.

You actually do not get the point I was making in that you can NOT transform the country economically and culturally to be at the same level of that of an advanced western economy simply by entering the EU!

Yet, your Ideological Crusade won't bring them from wishing what they want.

It depends how strong and effective the campaign is in informing and convincing them that what they are chasing is a mirage and they are better off chasing realistic options. It will not be me that does that but we can all help to inform ourselves on MTO so we don't contribute to fallacies.

Why is that so? Why didn't you learn the language properly. For a proud Macedonian I would be ashamed to admit that my language skills are insufficient.

Blah blah blah....We all have our priorities and opportunities. When I grew up there was little opportunity to learn and study Macedonian and language skills in a total foreign language environment are hard to develop unless you had them already. Being a proud Macedonian or a good patriot is not a prerequisite to being fluent in spoken and/or written literary Macedonian.

How do the others in R. of Macedonia survive? That is a interesting question.

That is their environment that they know how to get around in and most have a place to live in and many have land back in home villages plus getting some support from relatives living outside the country.

Ah OK, now you have said it, If you were rich!.

I said maybe if I were rich! I know one fellow who had a lot of trouble trying to do business there in the early 1990s because the old ruling clique did not want others to encroach on their turf.

The old good glue, the money. Well if all the Macedonians in R. of Macedonia were rich, they would have been ready for your Ideology and would have swallowed it whole heartedly.

I am not rich, as most Macedonians in Australia and around the world are surely not and there would be many who would be doing it quite tough. So stop your illusions and think about what has happened to the manufacturing industries in the western world where many Macedonians were employed and how others would be coping living on the old-aged pension as their sole income.

My parants were never rich, neither had good political connection nor were in the so called middle class, and yet they stayed there!

Were they living on the land? It was not full employment in SRM, if you did not know, and social security did not really apply if one did not have a long work contribution (raboten stazh). One needed connections to get jobs and there were not enough of them to go around. Collectivisation and other policies just about ruined village life and the consequences of that are now obvious and disastrous - ruined and abandoned villages in most cases.

I know many such cases. The only one who really leave abroad were those who either had some relatives there or wanted to go earn some money to by them self ficco or 101 car and come back.

The early migrants were poor rural unskilled peasants or semi-skilled workers who left due to few prospects at home and work opportunities in the West. Many of the older ones were born before the war and had only basic education (in Serbian for those from NRM/SRM) and may or may not have seen even electrification of their villages. Lets not compare apples to oranges.

However out of some not known reasons they stayed.
That ever.

No one likes uncertainty and being uprooted and if there is some work security or means of survival, people will stay home, especially those less adapted to living in the modern world as a migrant in a foreign land and environment.

Traitors or Vassals, to name few.

Do you know to whom that is in reference to?

You did not bothered me at first. But than you had to butt in and defend your clone brother! So now I am just questioning your integrity. I don't see much of it. What I have expecting anyways.

Anyone who states the following (as you do): "You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!" deserves scorn and condemnation and you should expect it from and any right-thinking Macedonian patriot!

Do you negate it that you pose like a leader. Your very tone of addressing people is arrogant. You pose like you know it all and attack others for not complying to your mindset.

There are certain things I do know about and thus, based on facts (unlike some others), I will "pose" like I do know what I am talking about.

Show me where I said that we are to change the name?

Did I say you said that?

I just expressed my confidence in the Macedonian identity and it persistence.

It may have been possible when Macedonians were the predominant population living on the land and there was no foreign church and state education and other institutions working overtime trying to eradicate their identity. As an example, check and see how the Macedonian villages around Skopje and Kumanovo are "surviving" and visit and see how Macedonian Arachinovo is today. How strong is the Macedonian identity in Seres and Kostur today and how strong will it be in Lerinsko if Macedonia disappears and there is no state to sustain the language, identity and culture of the Macedonians, even as poorly as that is the case today?

Look into the History section and prove me that I don't have right. There was no Macedonian State before 1945 and yet the Macedonian Identity prevailed.

See above and in 1945 Macedonians were mostly living on the land, more or less illiterate and having a high birth-rate. Villages today are lying in ruins and mostly abandoned and many areas taken over by the Shiptars/Ghegs.

So zdravje i teraj si go pato

Shto da se pravi so tebe koga ti go isprale mozokot od mal? :-)

[indigen]

Makedonin,

You are only describing a certain type of Macedonian...including yourself it appears. How about the Macedonians in Macedonia that refuse to accept oppression and seek to develop a FREE republic governed by FREE citizens? You are yet to account for them.

Secondly, the principles that are promoted by activists here are UNIVERSAL in that they apply to ALL humans. They don't just apply to "well-fed diaspora Macedonians". Your vacuous, and frankly VASSAL, repetition that Macedonians in Macedonia do not care about these principles and that the diaspora does not have any legitimate role to play in promoting these principles in Macedonia is nothing more than childish idiocy. ALL humans have a role in promoting these principles in ALL places. That makes our moral obligation even more pressing.

What is most ironic is that YOU use YOUR FREEDOM OF CHOICE to voluntarily accept the negation of OUR collective freedom. If YOU want to accept human SLAVERY, do it on YOUR OWN BEHALF and cease from attempting to convince US to do the same.

It seems that some MTO members prefer if we all act as a cheering squad for the VASSALS and maybe curse a little bit the Greeks, Bulgars and Shiptars whilst ignoring the core issues you eloquently point out.

[julie]

Indigen, I agree with all that you have said. There is nothing that can be misconstrued and you are stating facts. Incidentally, your Macedonian is awesome, and I applaud you, albeit sometimes a little tact here and there would not go astray.

Makedonin, no one is attacking you batko, and everything he has said is as it is. In Australia, we all rose in great numbers and marched , for Macedonia. Our Macedonian may be laughable in stranstvo, but I think we speak well enough to be understood. We have had no formal Macedonian language classes in stranstvo, and 1st and 2nd generation Australian Macedonians are doing very well in comparison to perhaps English speaking Macedonians in Macedonia.
The way we speak Macedonian, will never be fluent as you are, it does not make us less of a Macedonian, nor does it make the diaspora less worthy to want to call ourselves Macedonian.
My father left in disgust mostly, for the regime in place in the very early 60's. He could not cope with the titoism and brainwashing of the new Macedonia. He worked very hard , 2 jobs and sent money overseas to 2 sets of parents to help support them and the relatives. Many sat home and waited on the riches of Australia. That is a joke. Life is not easy here, we have to work very hard to just put a roof over our heads and feed our children, education is not free here , it is very expensive and compulsory to send our children to school. Yet we continue to send money overseas (and I use my lazy assed cousins as an excuse) that chase high fashion (forget the cheap home sewn clothes here I made for my boys growing up) and turn their noses up at clothes sent over in disgust. They have furniture I could not dream of owning , and wait home for the money tree from Australia. Dad in disgust stopped sending money and implored me not to listen anymore to their stories of woe. The latest electronic gadgets and gizmos, the latest Parisienne fashion, what a joke.
You have no right to say to us Makedonin , that we have no right in the diaspora. Our identity is at stake. Go back you say, many of us here are from Egejska Makedonia, forced out of our homelands and that really is insulting. RoM has the ability to rise up in arms, Egej doesnt, nor Pirin, so what the hell is everyone wating for,? Get a job, and I really dont care to hear the sob story, I have a degree and wont work as a cleaner that is utter bullshit and rubbish in my eyes. A job is a job, I have degrees , and worked 2 jobs as a single parent for 10 years to just feed and clothe my 3 boys and put a roof over our heads. Am sick and tired of the excuses from RoM, and when I hear first hand from my dignified father (who to this day at the age of 74 works tirelessly and constantly available on call to the Macedonian community here ) when he retruned from 5 months in RoM a few weeks ago, they are lazy, chase fashion, and live well, they cry poverty, yet they wont try and work, they wont work the land in the villages, where many have been left farms because of sheer laziness, and he is the one that told me how hated he was being part of the diaspora.
Everywhere in RoM. Why? Because half his paycheck from one of his jobs supported 2 fucking gfamilies that were too lazy assed to get up and work?? Too good to pick up a shovel? Clean a toilet ? (I have been a housecleaner here too!) Too good for menial clothes, up to date with more than we could ever dream of in Australia?

Bratot, am disappointed in you saying I am spreading rumors and spreading hatred with my comments that I am promoting hatred. Well then stop hating me for being born in strantsvo and wanting one timny piece of what is left of Macedonia to stop getting fucked over . That is my fight. I am Macedonian. However I speak it. I am Macedonian. Its my blood, my life, my passion.
You want me to come , revolt, I will, I promise you this, I will go front line as a leader in mortal combat, can anyone in Macedonia do the same? Fucking bullshit
Enough everyone with the slander of each other, this is enough, what will it take for RoM to fucking wake up, we are losing this war, its almost over and Indigen is 100% correct in everything he has said

[Boge]

This thread has me facinated. So Mr Veli Riste, how do you explain the fervent patriotism shown by the 2 keepers here towards Brat Ljube! Mate even Vijnik od Makedonia had a fund raiser for the BRAT with his little buddy Struja. Too much hypocricy here from the so called keepers! Veli Riste...you need to re visit makedonis statements. What he is saying is not an attack. You seem to be an inteligent man, about time you exercised some empathy.

[Bratot]

Bratot, am disappointed in you saying I am spreading rumors and spreading hatred with my comments that I am promoting hatred. Well then stop hating me for being born in strantsvo and wanting one timny piece of what is left of Macedonia to stop getting fucked over . That is my fight. I am Macedonian. However I speak it. I am Macedonian. Its my blood, my life, my passion.
You want me to come , revolt, I will, I promise you this, I will go front line as a leader in mortal combat, can anyone in Macedonia do the same? Fucking bullshitEnough everyone with the slander of each other, this is enough, what will it take for RoM to fucking wake up, we are losing this war, its almost over and Indigen is 100% correct in everything he has said

It doesn't have any significance for me where have you been born, it's another useless effort to depict me as a hater in the same way you tried to imply for all those who live in Macedonia.

When you are labelling those people what do you think it makes you look in their eyes?

Don't apply the slander style on me, I know exactly how the life is in Macedonia and I don't need anyone to tell me about it from his 1 visit in a decade.
I'm not going to participate with my 'touchy' stories but generalization with calling me lazy or my parents isn't working for your cause.

Have you ever been close to a war conditions? You probably can't even imagine what noise make 1000 aircrafts over your sky, you probably have never heard even a distant rumble and thud made by never-ending artillery firing, their lights at night, the vibration that doesn't let you sleep and the anger you hold.

How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country?

Don't try to sell big words to me, you don't need to impress me.
I know you have a big heart and best intentions but complying with the offensive vocabulary of other members will provoke only negative effects.

[Risto the Great]

How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country?

How many Macedonians from Macedonia defended Macedonia in 2001?

The first time I saw it described as a war was last year.

[Risto the Great]

This thread has me facinated. So Mr Veli Riste, how do you explain the fervent patriotism shown by the 2 keepers here towards Brat Ljube! Mate even Vijnik od Makedonia had a fund raiser for the BRAT with his little buddy Struja. Too much hypocricy here from the so called keepers! Veli Riste...you need to re visit makedonis statements. What he is saying is not an attack. You seem to be an inteligent man, about time you exercised some empathy.

I will assume you are talking to me. I responded to Makedonin in the same way I would to anyone about Macedonian matters. What exactly do you agree with about his statements that was enough to encourage you out of retirement?

One day I hope to have a fundraiser for a true patriot. I will let you know when I find one. If the true patriot changes his spots later on, I will be the first one to let him know about it.

What exactly is your point?

By the way, just use the proper forum names for the people you are referring to. Anything different makes you look like a bit of a fool. Your forum name is clever, it is the name of the suspension parts in my previous Porsche.

Do you prefer this current flag over the Yugoslavian one Boge? What is your reason?

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Bratot
How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country?

How many Macedonians from Macedonia defended Macedonia in 2001?

The first time I saw it described as a war was last year.

Disappointing to hear such silly nonsensical jibes at Diaspora Macedonians from someone like Bratot, who should be more politically enlightened.

RTG, I was not aware that a state of emergency was declared in 2001 and having in place strict curfews and that a mass mobilisation was called for, were you?

I can remember that we had a hard-core BUGAROMAN prime minister and his sidekicks who were about to lose government at the end of 2000 and then there appeared reports in late January 2001 of men in black uniforms in Tanushevci. This Government was a Bugaroman and Shiptar coalition and claimed those reports were a media beat up with the insinuation that it was a Serbian secret service plot. They only started to believe it when Ljube Boshkovski travelled up there and created a circus show with diving stunts as the UCK terrorists ambushed and opened fire on his convoy, trapping him and his entourage there for hours until a negotiated deal ended his escapade. Then they were in a dilemma as on what to do for a couple of months. After this there was some action by the state security forces between March and June, by which time we had a new coalition government (including the UCK advocates and supporters, who were there from the start!). A "compromise" deal/proposal appeared very early (Feb/March) on the horizon heralded by B. Geroski and Lj. Frchkovski in "DnevniK" and elsewhere and the Ramkoven was more or less fully cooked by June (though it may have been in the pot and on low heat for many years.).

What many don't realise is the fact that we had a government at war with itself - Ghegs on one side backing, and acting, as advocates for the UCK and the Macedonian side filled with Bugaromani and Gragjanoidi supposedly acting on behalf of Macedonia and Macedonians. Is it any wonder that many Macedonians lost their lives in ambushes, where they were set up, most likely with the help of the UCK part of the government, whilst in transport vehicles rather than in a front-line facing the enemy.

This info below is from wikipedia and at least this part seems OK to me for a general overview on the start of the conflict.

Beginning of the Albanian insurgency

The first actions by ethnic Albanians in Macedonia occurred in late 2000 and early 2001, mainly along Macedonia's border with then-United Nations-administered Kosovo. The insurgents acted in a pattern similar to the one seen in Kosovo in late 1997 and through 1998, according to which they gradually took over one village after the other. Any such efforts were initially peaceful, non-Albanian population were forced to leave.[4] But, in January–February 2001 combat actions against legitimate authorities begun.

The government at first did nothing against the situation because it received assurances, that what was going on was not directed against Macedonia. Satisfied, the authorities waited for almost two months – and then the situation was almost immediately out of control, in fact so much that the government was taken by surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurge...c_of_Macedonia[4]