Ventilator

[Mastika]

Mastika, What do you see in a referendum? Its going to cost millions of euros for a result that everybody will know anyway, so we reject Northern Macedonia then what happens next?? Nemetz proposes Upper Macedonia, we hold another referendum and we reject it? If this keeps going we'll go banrupt before Greece does.

It gives even extra weight to our cause, that the citizens of the republic of Macedonia are officially against the changing of the country's constitutional name. Julie please explain why you think that the results will be rigged? Besides, at the moment there is no concrete talk of a referendum. If I am not mistaken, all that politicians have been stating is that if there would be a referendum then they would vote 'No', I should hope that THEY would vote no.

[Jankovska]

It gives even extra weight to our cause, that the citizens of the republic of Macedonia are officially against the changing of the country's constitutional name. Julie please explain why you think that the results will be rigged? Besides, at the moment there is no concrete talk of a referendum. If I am not mistaken, all that politicians have been stating is that if there would be a referendum then they would vote 'No', I should hope that THEY would vote no.

This was already done, why do it again? Are we such pushovers that we will hold a referendum every time someone has a problem with what we are called? Why do you think it's acceptable or needed it to do it again?

[Mastika]

This was already done, why do it again? Are we such pushovers that we will hold a referendum every time someone has a problem with what we are called? Why do you think it's acceptable or needed it to do it again?

Look personally I am not pro-referendum. All I said was that people need not be so anti- it. If it does happen then people need to make the most of what it. A referendum can be used to our advantage.

[Jankovska]

Look personally I am not pro-referendum. All I said was that people need not be so anti- it. If it does happen then people need to make the most of what it. A referendum can be used to our advantage.

A referendum will not and cannot be used for our advantage. We had a referendum, we made decision and that is where it ends. That's how serious countries are built.

[DIMO]

A referendum on our idenitiy and biblical name should not even be considered.

[indigen]

Indigen may well turn out to have been right in suggesting that only armed conflict can help us gain freedom and sovereignty (and most nations have in fact won their freedom and sovereignty by war), but given the extreme sacrifices that such a course requires, we should try civil disobedience first. After all, if we don't have the collective courage and perseverance required for a successful civil disobedience campaign, we certainly won't have the collective courage and perseverance required for winning a war and successfully implementing the changes the war was intended for.

Lets NOT misunderstand or misinterpret what I said and what I am saying needs to happen first.

The main point being that the Macedonian nation needs to have its consciousness raised to a level where it will be prepared to fight a war and aim to win.

Macedonian Enlightenment in ALL its encompassing spheres - POLITICAL and CULTURAL - is a preparatory prerequisite for lifting the fighting spirit of our nation. The current national historic narrative is composed by our oppressors and produces confused individuals with low national esteem and capacity to resist Macedonian national DECONSTRUCTION that has been enacted with the signing of the "Interim Accord" and "Ramkoven Dogovor".

SOM said:
Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?

My Response was:

"The "Ramkoven Dogovor" precludes any changes without Gheg approval and I leave it to your deductive capacity to know what needs to be done first and how realistic that is in the current state of affairs in RoM.

The Macedonian nation needs to have its consciousness raised to a level where it will be prepared to fight a war and aim to win it because the Ghegs will not accept less than what they have now and will continue to ask for more concessions and threaten war in order to get them. If Macedonians continue to submit to political pressures and threats of war, there will soon be nothing left to concede."

[indigen]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov
a good start would be to lead by example, which most people on this thread don't seem to be inclined to do at present.

Let's start with everything emanating from the interim accord and framework agreement.

Agreed!!!!

Good point but one should NOT expect INSTANT CONVERSION to this way of thinking and needs to continue to patiently AGITATE for winning over people who may have fallen prey to the anti-Macedonian propaganda that is emanating from official state, media and political establishment in RoM (including KUPOCI in the Diaspora) and their "IC" Masters. You both have done a great deal in the forums in the last year or so and I am sure many people are starting to see the light.

A good website with blogs by yourselves and others (from RoM and the Diaspora) on the topics mentioned above and related matters would be a great advance in furthering those aims and objectives.

[aleksandrov]

If the Macedonians on this thread, most of whom are from Diaspora, lead by example and unify on key common positions, how do we maximise the potential of such an occurrence so that inspires the Macedonians in RoM to think similarly and in terms of civil disobediences?...

By agitation. The internet, including online forums, makes that much easier now than it was when Macedonian activists from the Diaspora were agitating for an independent Macedonian Republic and for dispelling the "Slav settlers" myth about our shared origin, 4 decades ago, 3 decades ago, 2 decades ago, and even 1 decade ago. The biggest weakness in the Diaspora back then was its own internal division, driven by opportunistic or gullible extended hands the vassal regime in the Republic of Macedonia (something we still suffer from). Yet those Macedonian liberation activists from the Diaspora are largely responsible for inspiring and providing direction for all the positive changes that have happened in Macedonia since the 1980s, no matter how compromised those changes have been.

Can you be a little more specific and cite some practical examples? What would change on an everyday basis for the average Macedonian?

I've already been more specific in another post, which you might have missed. I don't think it's prudent to go into a lot more specifics than that on a public forum, at this stage.

[aleksandrov]

Indigen,

On the matter of raising the moral consciousness so that freedom and justice are valued enough for people to gather the courage and perseverance required for a successful struggle against the odds, I think we all need to start looking more to the guidance and inspiration provided by the forefathers of our liberation cause:

“Eden petstogodishen rob kje posegne po oruzhje ne od ochajanie, ami od zheleznata neophodnost, koja ja osoznal, da zhivee slobodno zashto inaku ne mozhe vekje da zhivee. Takov chovek nema da plamne brzo, da izbuvne od gnev, da se frli so glavata napred, pa shto kje bide neka bide. Toj kje promisli, kje preceni i potoa otkako gi podgotvil uslovite za pobedata po sekoja cena nema da ochajuva, ami kje se bori i kje se bie uporno.” - Goce DELCHEV

To make substantial moves forward, we must unequivocally recognize that the slave mentality/culture that has been systematically instilled in our people through centuries of oppression still forms the mental paradigm that shapes the way 'mainstream' Macedonians deal with threats and conflict, which is why they still keep on inviting one hegemony in place of another.

The sense of Macedonian national identity has certainly progressed since Delchev's days (as it has for all nations), but it seems that we have gone backwards as far as the realization of the full value of freedom and justice is concerned.

[indigen]

Indigen,

On the matter of raising the moral consciousness so that freedom and justice are valued enough for people to gather the courage and perseverance required for a successful struggle against the odds, I think we all need to start looking more to the guidance and inspiration provided by the forefathers of our liberation cause:

“Eden petstogodishen rob kje posegne po oruzhje ne od ochajanie, ami od zheleznata neophodnost, koja ja osoznal, da zhivee slobodno zashto inaku ne mozhe vekje da zhivee. Takov chovek nema da plamne brzo, da izbuvne od gnev, da se frli so glavata napred, pa shto kje bide neka bide. Toj kje promisli, kje preceni i potoa otkako gi podgotvil uslovite za pobedata po sekoja cena nema da ochajuva, ami kje se bori i kje se bie uporno.” - Goce DELCHEV

A good English translation is in order here, can you accommodate?

[makedonche]

I think expecting the people in ROM to align our views and theirs is extremely optomistic, my understanding is that they are struggling with day to day issues and what we in the diaspora consider critical/imperative they probably don't. my experience tells me that people give consideration to higher and more important issues once they have the basics under control and are not consumed by "where's the next dollar coming from". We have a major task on our hands to rally support for the removal of the Accord, civil disobedience for changing the flag etc. until the Macedonian people have some level of an acceptable standard of living. This I think is an important step towards raising awareness of important sovreignity issues and national pride/awareness. Another critical area is the media, in particular the t.v stations and the type of transmissions/programs they are providing are impacting on the general population negatively. In order for the diaspora to have fast widereaching impact we will need to control or align ourselves with a station that promotes our views and gets the message across regularly and clearly.

[aleksandrov]

A good English translation is in order here, can you accommodate?

I'll try:

A slave of five centuries will resort to arms not out of desperation, but out of the steel necessity, which he has become aware of, to live free, because otherwise he can no longer live. Such a person will not fire up quickly, explode from anger, throw himself head first, and let come what may. He will think, evaluate and then after he has prepared the conditions for victory at any cost, he will not despair, but will struggle and fight resolutely. Goce Delchev

[aleksandrov]

... but, we have a weapon ...

YouTube - Michael Collins Speech

[Soldier of Macedon]

Nice clip.

[aleksandrov]

Nice clip.

It's a great film too. It shouldn't be missed. Plenty of analogies to the history of the Macedonian struggle against occupation and oppression - particularly the internal treachery and the self-destructive mentality that successful imperialists systematically instill into the culture of their subjects.