Ventilator

[sf.]

The circumstances which instigated and led to the adoption of the new flag were disgraceful. We all agree.

The old flag should be reinstated at the very first opportunity. We all agree.

We don't have to respect, accept or like the new flag, but logic and common sense requires us to acknowledge the reality of our current situation, because at this point in time, it is the official flag of the Macedonian state. Rather than discussing strategies about how we can bring about a change so the old flag is reinstated, people are only complaining about the new flag and almost accusing others of being against the Macedonian Cause for not 'hating' it as much as they do.

Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?

This is the type of argument I would like to see more of. Enough of people slapping their dicks (pardon my language) onto the table proclaiming 'mine is the biggest' every time an important issue is discussed. They're detracting from the cause.

Having said that, the flag issue is the last of our worries at the moment. The core concerns are the sovereignty of RoM, and the preservation of identity as expressed through our understanding of history, commonality, language, religion and other determined values.

After this is established, you may find that the majority would not want to change the flag.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You have the perfect mechanism right here - a website and forum visited by literaly hundreds of well-meaning Macedonians every day.

Speak out against the Interim Accord (and all its destructive time bombs such as the ventilator) and spread the message from here, from today.

Let's say it picks up momentum. What is the next step Vangelovski, to whom do we then direct our voices? The Macedonian Government? Insititutions within Macedonia that can influence? Which would those be?

Do you consider a campaign of civil disobedience to be a realistic suggestion?

"Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power, using no form of violence. It is one of the primary methods of nonviolent resistance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

How do we get the people in Macedonia to start thinking this way? How would it be applied in practical terms, what laws, demands and/or commands would they need to disobey, so the message gets the government's serious attention? If we can identify these points, we can determine how realistic such an option would be.

[Bill77]

Bill, in your opinion, what do you think the ramifications would be if Macedonia was to change its flag back and refuse to deal with racist states that don't recognise the Macedonian sate? Would the world isolate us, or would it expediate the whole process of our overall recognition? What do you think?

I think it would be a big mistake and very dangerous to head that path Brat. Isolation would be most definete. Reversal of pryor recognition (such as USA, UK) is very posible. The West will let there dogs out again (Albanians), most definetly.

Now we can acheive all our goals if we takle our problems one at a time. Number one on the list and most important is our name. Lets not muck this up. I know its anoying that we are dealing with these racist states. But lets play the game and give an impresion that we are good boys. Why cant we show interest but stand our ground firmly at the same time. Sooner or latley they will ither tell us or Greece to fuck them selves, But let them decide. Let them keep denying us entering these clubs. That way its there descision, and not ours which would be if we were to walk away now.

The only problem with above is, can our leaders stand there ground permenantly.

I might sound like an hipocrit. On another thread where you started a poll weather we should holt all negotiations, i voted yes. But i am only human. My answer depends on if you ask my heart, or Head. I am using my Head in this post.


PS: back to the flag issue, once we acheive our goal in the Name issue, and after Greece stops crying, we can sneek our original flag via the back door. We will have dogs barking at us, but a lot less chance of any serious ramifications for we will be a fully recognised state.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Isolation would be most definete. Reversal of pryor recognition (such as USA, UK) is very posible. The West will let there dogs out again (Albanians), most definetly..............

Bill, on what do you base such convictions? How do you see the above points you made (a) coming about and (b) impacting the Macedonians?

Sooner or latley they will ither tell us or Greece to fuck them selves, But let them decide. Let them keep denying us entering these clubs. That way its there descision, and not ours which would be if we were to walk away now.........

It's been 2 decades mate, enough is enough, the whole issue is about negating our identity and sovereignty, nothing more. We have let these people decide enough for us, I think it is time that we Macedonians start deciding for ourselves. I really can't see how asserting our own identity through the cessation of treacherous agreements and official protest against international institutions works out to be a negative. If anything, this is exactly what Macedonia needs right now.

[Phoenix]

I think it would be a big mistake and very dangerous to head that path Brat. Isolation would be most definete. Reversal of pryor recognition (such as USA, UK) is very posible. The West will let there dogs out again (Albanians), most definetly.

Now we can acheive all our goals if we takle our problems one at a time. Number one on the list and most important is our name. Lets not muck this up. I know its anoying that we are dealing with these racist states. But lets play the game and give an impresion that we are good boys. Why cant we show interest but stand our ground firmly at the same time. Sooner or latley they will ither tell us or Greece to fuck them selves, But let them decide. Let them keep denying us entering these clubs. That way its there descision, and not ours which would be if we were to walk away now.

The only problem with above is, can our leaders stand there ground permenantly.

I might sound like an hipocrit. On another thread where you started a poll weather we should holt all negotiations, i voted yes. But i am only human. My answer depends on if you ask my heart, or Head. I am using my Head in this post.


PS: back to the flag issue, once we acheive our goal in the Name issue, and after Greece stops crying, we can sneek our original flag via the back door. We will have dogs barking at us, but a lot less chance of any serious ramifications for we will be a fully recognised state.

Billy, im guessing that there's no fucking chance that we will be able to get our flag back and to use it on any official level...i reckon the greeks would have been far smarter than our peanuts in ensuring that from a legal perpective we abandoned all rights to its use...and exactly the same will happen if any lunatic decides that a change of name will be a 'temporary' arrangement...

[julie]

Phoenix, lunacy appears to prevail for some unfortunately, that have their blinkers on, or dont give a rats

[Mastika]

Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?

Wait for the name dispute to be resolved. Then Macedonia can go and reinstate whatever the citizens want to be reinstated. Until then Macedonia has to play the game and be involved with the name discussions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What if the 'name dispute' is not resolved in our favour?

[Prolet]

What if the 'name dispute' is not resolved in our favour?

Thats a question everyone seems to have on the back of their mind.

[Bill77]

Bill, on what do you base such convictions? How do you see the above points you made (a) coming about and (b) impacting the Macedonians?.

Regarding the Albanians, the west has done it before. So this most recent history tells me it can happen again.
Reversing the recognition, inparticulor USA, Again past history tells me what dogs they can be. Its in the west best interest that Macedonia enters Nato and EU. I have read some where in this forum on how desperate the US are for us to get accepted. Obviously they don't care about our feelings (name issue). As long as they get it there way. If we step on there toes, they will make life hard for us.

It's been 2 decades mate, enough is enough, the whole issue is about negating our identity and sovereignty, nothing more. .

Yes i agree. Its been going on to long.

But while we are still in the game, our identity has a chance. If we walk away now abruptly with no suport, its almost certain our identity and sovereignty will be permenantly nagated.

We have let these people decide enough for us, I think it is time that we Macedonians start deciding for ourselves. I really can't see how asserting our own identity through the cessation of treacherous agreements and official protest against international institutions works out to be a negative. If anything, this is exactly what Macedonia needs right now.

Not for one moment am i sugesting that cessation of treacherous agreements and official protest against international institutions is negative in any way. All i am trying to get at is play our cards right.

Just some options that have been brought up before. Lets make our Redline loud and clear. Tell them they know where to find us when they need us and slowly walk away with out completely slaming the door on the west. Let them sence we are not weak and let them suck up a bit. In the mean time, lets ocupy our time and look at options mabe starting a pact with Turkey, Russia or China for an example. Nations like China or Russia might not have anything we can offer, But the fact we are looking at other possibilities, should wary the west, and more importantly, it would be a clear message that we are not cornered and don't depend on EU.

Another positive,(only if its posible) if we do find a powerful partner, then the isolation senario goes out the window. We would have financial and military suport. By then if the west don't change there tune, we can abruptly tear up any agreements.

This is probably just wishful thinking. Its just my opinion and am happy to be corected. Thank god i am not leading the country. No dought we are in a mess and i am strugling for the right answers.

[julie]

What if the 'name dispute' is not resolved in our favour?

Revolution. War. protests.
Have the people that are in positions of power in RoM tried for treason.

Dont know about anyone else here, but this chicky babe would be mighty pissed off.
2 million people in RoM are macedonian.
How many people in the disapora, including Egey and Pirin and Mala Prespa?

The berlin wall came down by hand, peacefully.

I will not give up my beautiful Macedonian name , the blood of my family spilt for what?

To appease a bunch of baboons.

And whats the bloody story with UMD having Reeker as an honoured guest????

Tell me guys, who on this forum would be apathetic to a forced name change?

[Bill77]

I think i need a goog break guys, i dont know what i am thinking or talking about anymore. Disregard the crap ive posted today,To much shit hapening in my life. Catch you all later. Stay safe


pozz bill

[julie]

Take care Brat

[Volk]

What if the 'name dispute' is not resolved in our favour?

Then its not resolution but suicide. I honestly believe this will not happen, the more the EU looks less attractive the less incentive to even have 'negotiations', the more NATO looks pointless the less reason to join it.

The name must be protected in the constitution, that no one has a right to change it. EVER, no matter the cost

[indigen]

The circumstances which instigated and led to the adoption of the new flag were disgraceful. We all agree.

The old flag should be reinstated at the very first opportunity. We all agree.

We don't have to respect, accept or like the new flag....

Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?

The "Ramkoven Dogovor" precludes any changes without Gheg approval and I leave it to your deductive capacity to know what needs to be done first and how realistic that is in the current state of affairs in RoM.

The Macedonian nation needs to have its consciousness raised to a level where it will be prepared to fight a war and aim to win it because the Ghegs will not accept less than what they have now and will continue to ask for more concessions and threaten war in order to get them. If Macedonians continue to submit to political pressures and threats of war, there will soon be nothing left to concede.