Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

People on here are so good at going off topic. These guy's (unfortunately) died "under a flag" that was not of their choosing - nor were they alive to choose which flag they would be buried with. The surviving 2001 veterans CHOSE the sonce as their symbol for Dostoinstvo. Had these poor guys been alive, I'm sure they would have concured with their comrades in choosing the sonce.

Before you all get emotional, how about you read back through the thread. And how about someone explain how "war" makes treason "ok"? This is your entire "reasoning" for supporting the ventilator, so its time to provide an explanation. Why support one symbol of treason (ventilator) and not another (FYROM)? They both are part and parcel of the Interim Accord and designed to DESTROY our freedom and identity.

Also, if you have all accepted the ventilator, what makes you so adamant that you won't accept a name change? If you've come to respect the ventilator which was an act of treason on the side of our politicians and an act of aggression on the side of our oppressors, what makes you so sure you won't accept any other capitulation with the passage of time?

Finally, I'm tired of people on here confusing the 'petal' design in the centre of the sonce (as found on Philip II tomb) for the ventilator:

http://www.makedonia.com.fr/Sarcophage%20Philip.jpg

[Bratot]

Ok Vangele,

The Royal Tomb of Kutlesh (Vergina) - 8 rays




St. Demitrija - Bitola built in 1830

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

That is the SONCE not the ventilator. Are you now trying to claim that the ancient Macedonians did not use the sonce but the ventilator instead?

How about providing some substance to your "war" theory that you keep avoiding?

[Bratot]

The Flag is Still Not "Made Up"

Vecer, 25.10.2001) - The solar eight-ray symbol engraved in stone, discovered three years ago in the place Orlof Kamen near the village of Trnovec, Kratovo, by members of a mixed Macedonian - Italian crew, after it was properly returned to us in the Italian embassy in Skopje, will be placed in the Museum of Kratovo.
- The engraved stone was discovered by the crew member Gino Mucilli (employed at the Italian embassy), remembers Dusko Aleksovski, manager of the research and director of the Centre for stone art of the Republic of Macedonia. The surprise and thrill from the unusual discovery was immense. Having on the team Dario Seglie, president of the World federation of stone art, we had immediately done an expert examination for the identification of the discovered stone. The World federation situated in Melbourne, Australia, where the bulletin for 1995 had been published, was immediately informed of the discovery.


...the five millenniums old engraved stone has a solar meaning with a long tradition:here, it can be seen since the bronze period until the time of christianisation and even later. It can be seen as a decoration in our churches, as well as the Italian churches. In its original shape (an eight - ray star with particles between the rays), this symbol has already been discovered in the Belasica mountain and is estimated to be 10 000 years old (the current Macedonian flag has an application of the very same engraved stone with a millennium long tradition).


more...

http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=1901&rub=40

or maybe

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

The Sonce has had three versions - 16, 12 and 8 rays. The ventilator (with its INVERTED rays, has no historical significance).

EVEN IF IT DID:

Explain how "war" makes treason "ok"? This is your entire "reasoning" for supporting the ventilator, so its time to provide an explanation. Why support one symbol of treason (ventilator) and not another (FYROM)? They both are part and parcel of the Interim Accord and designed to DESTROY our freedom and identity.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

That is the SONCE not the ventilator. Are you now trying to claim that the ancient Macedonians did not use the sonce but the ventilator instead?

Not only Macedonians used the sun as their symbol and I don't think we are able to addopt only ONE version of the sun - as our symbol.

How about providing some substance to your "war" theory that you keep avoiding?

"My" war theory or you have made a mess of the arguments on this thread... and now you are trying to water down the historical discussion, or maybe you want to say Goce Delcev wasn't a true Macedonian hero since he didn't used the 16 rayed flag at his time?

Or every other example such as him?


Seriously... take a break and stop imposing adolescent discussion.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

You're missing the point - the ventilator was IMPOSED on us - it was NOT a FREE CHOICE. It has nothing to do with Goce Delcev or any historical argument. It is about Macedonian FREEDOM.

Now tell me why the 2001 conflict makes the treasonous act - ARTICLE 7 of the Interim Accord ok with you?

[aleksandrov]

I want any of you guys to tell the Family of these heros, there sons were not Patriots.

That's a silly and irrelevant comment, which shows you haven't been following discussion in any depth.

[Prolet]

This is the Mijak flag.

Nice find Brate

[Daniel the Great]

I personally accept the old flag it has more history.
Bratot are you saying they got the idea for the new flag from those photos you put up ?
if they did fair enough.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

The Sonce has had three versions - 16, 12 and 8 rays. The ventilator (with its INVERTED rays, has no historical significance).

It does now Vangele, like it or not.

EVEN IF IT DID:

Explain how "war" makes treason "ok"? This is your entire "reasoning" for supporting the ventilator, so its time to provide an explanation. Why support one symbol of treason (ventilator) and not another (FYROM)? They both are part and parcel of the Interim Accord and designed to DESTROY our freedom and identity.

I thought you are a serious person to discuss with and now you are building your replays over some fictious reasonings.

I didn't used the 'war' or any war to approve or give ligimity to the current flag, nor I have a need of that.

Maybe you should balance your arguments and provide an explanation why do you think the current flag is designed to destroy our freedom and identity?

The usage of the current flag does not exclude any other nor denies our identity, but provide a political legimity to identify ourselfs with the SUN and the national colours.

It's like saying that you are simply too ugly to represent a Macedonian person but you were still born as such, it's the same with the flag and it's genesis which still represents Macedonia and Macedonians since the ppl and the country are identifying it and not "fyroms".

However... it's your life and my waste of time explaining basic things.

[aleksandrov]

This discussion has nowhere further to go until the defenders of the imposed flag start realizing that those of us who are rejecting it are doing so not because of its design, but because of the underlying philosophical and political implications of accepting it.

From my point of view, I would rather use NO FLAG AT ALL than one that our oppressors imposed on us (and I count as oppressors not only Greece, but also the 'Macedonian' politicians who did Greece's work). Perhaps I should have said that from the beginning, to help avoid this topic being blurred with peripheral arguments about which flag design looks more like the greatest number of archeological artifacts found in Macedonia, or which one looks 'stronger' or nicer, or which one someone happened to have near him/her when he/she died while fighting not for a flag, but for the peace and security of decent Macedonian citizens, or, at least in some cases, to simply perform a professional duty.

Now here's an appropriate song to lighten up the mood:

"White, Discussion

I talk of freedom
you talk of the flag
I talk of revolution
you'd much rather brag
and as the decibels of this disenchanting discourse
continue to dampen the day

the coin flips again and again, and again, and again
as our sanity walks away
all this discussion though politically correct
is dead beyond destruction
though it leaves me quite erect

and as the final sunset rolls behind the earth
and the clock is finally dead
I'll look at you, you'll look at me
and we'll cry a lot
but this will be what we said
this will be what we said

Look where all this talking got us, baby."

YouTube - Live - White, Discussion

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You're missing the point - the ventilator was IMPOSED on us - it was NOT a FREE CHOICE. It has nothing to do with Goce Delcev or any historical argument. It is about Macedonian FREEDOM.Now tell me why the 2001 conflict makes the treasonous act - ARTICLE 7 of the Interim Accord ok with you?

It is My Macedonian freedom of choice weither I will use the 16 rayed sun flag or the current 8 rayed sun flag or both or every single flag related to Macedonia and Macedonians.

[Bill77]

Bratot,

The Sonce has had three versions - 16, 12 and 8 rays. The ventilator (with its INVERTED rays, has no historical significance).

EVEN IF IT DID:

Explain how "war" makes treason "ok"? This is your entire "reasoning" for supporting the ventilator, so its time to provide an explanation. Why support one symbol of treason (ventilator) and not another (FYROM)? They both are part and parcel of the Interim Accord and designed to DESTROY our freedom and identity.

Vangelovski,

You and your ventilator. Its the Sonce. I posted the Act on the Flag of the Republic of Macedonia That was adopted by the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia on its session held on 5 October 1995,
proclaimed the same day by Decree No 08-3359/1

Read Article 2 again. Quote: "The flag of the Republic of Macedonia is red with a golden-yellow sun. The sun has eight rays, emerging from the sun disk, thickening towards the end. The sun rays are crossing diagonally, horizontally and vertically".

The Greeks were celebrating after the change and joking about it and giving it names just like you are. But little do they know, they have egg on there face because its stll the sun, and acording to the "Law Of The Flag" adopted by the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia, its still the Sonce and The ROM is not hiding the fact.

Questions,
A) why is it treason to not piss on a current ROM symbol?

B) Is there anything at all in the Interim Accord you are satisfied with. I am not asking about the fact we were made to sign the accord it self. I am asking about any spasific Articals in that accord that suits us.

C) Are the families of these soldiers that were murdered, non patriots for not taking of the Curent Macedonian flag that was draped on there loved ones coffin..

[julie]

Bill point C) has me agreeing. My preference is with the original flag, but having soldiers die under the existing one, with the pictures you have posted, leads me to accept it.

HOWEVER

my name is NON NEGOTIABLE