Ventilator

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks Aleksandrov.

Is that book still available for purchase, and if so, from where? If it is in Macedonia I can have one of my relatives chase it up.

[indigen]

Ventilatori galore:


"Flag of Tibet"



Hopi Sun Symbol:
A symbol of creative and natural energy. The supreme god due to the Hopi's dependence upon it for the growth of corn, and other sustaining crops. The sun symbol represents the heart of the cosmos and deals with vitality, growth, and passion.


---------------

Some Suns from Roman Era



Around the same time that Herod began to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, some remarkable coinage was issued by the Roman Emperor Augustus. This silver Denarius coin was minted around 19BC and shows a comet with 8 rays, the eighth of which seems to be fiery, said to celebrate the 'Divine Julius' .

It is an odd depiction of a comet, emphasising a strong light source in the centre, rather than the cometary tail.


Sol Invictus

Sun Worship Heritage:

Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest [CJ3.12.2]:

On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, article on Constantine the Great:

"Besides, the Sol Invictus had been adopted by the Christians in a Christian sense, as demonstrated in the Christ as Apollo-Helios in a mausoleum (c. 250) discovered beneath St. Peter's in the Vatican."

Indeed "...from the beginning of the 3rd century "Sun of Justice" appears as a title of Christ". Some consider this to be in opposition to Sol Invictus. Some see an allusion to Malachi 4:2.

The date for Christmas may also bear a relation to the sun worship. According to the scholiast on the Syriac bishop Jacob Bar-Salibi, writing in the twelfth century:

"It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day."

Sun worship in Roman state takes center stage and comes from east (Macedonian Empires):

Aurelian
Aurelian in his radiate crown, on a silvered bronze coin struck at Rome, 274-275

The Roman gens Aurelian was associated with the cult of Sol. After his victories in the East, the emperor Aurelian thoroughly reformed the Roman cult of Sol, elevating the sun-god to one of the premier divinities of the empire. Where previously a priests of Sol had been simply sacerdotes and tended to belong to lower ranks of Roman society, they were now pontifices and members of the new college of pontifices instituted by Aurelian. Every pontifex of Sol was a member of the senatorial elite, indicating that the priesthood of Sol was now highly prestigious. Almost all these senators held other priesthoods as well, however, and some of these other priesthoods take precedence in the inscriptions in which they are listed, suggesting that they were considered more prestigious than the priesthood of Sol. Aurelian also built a new temple for Sol, bringing the total number of temples for the god in Rome to (at least) four He also instituted games in honor of the sun god, held every four years from AD 274 onwards.

[aleksandrov]

Thanks Aleksandrov.

Is that book still available for purchase, and if so, from where? If it is in Macedonia I can have one of my relatives chase it up.

It used to be available on www.macedoniadirect.com, but I can't find it there now. I bought mine in Macedonia. Given that it's a pretty new book (2005), I am sure you will still be able to get it there. You could also ask Igor Pavlovski, from the Today newspaper in Melbourne, whose family runs the Misla and Matica Makedonska publishing houses in Macedonia. He regularly imports books from Macedonia, including books that are not published by Misla and Matica Makedonska, but distributed through their outlets.

Also, Dr Petar Popovski's son, Bobby Popovski, lives in Australia and works on the Macedonian program at SBS Radio. You could contact him via SBS or find him on Facebook. I am sure he would be able to help you out.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the information, I will make some inquiries.

[indigen]

IME, TM seems to have graduated from the same "Buktop and Koloski School of Geopolitics" as the rest of the UMD CREW. Their logic as applied to Macedonian issues in RoM starts to resemble Greek and Bulgar propaganda respectively applied to Macedonians under their rule/occupation, e.g. Greeks use low vote numbers for Vinozhito or lack of mass protests to deny existence of a Macedonian indigenous minority and Bulgar authorities use their census data, amongst other rationale, to do the same. All the obstacles affecting Macedonians are conveniently ignored and the oppressive policies justified, as TM and other UMDOvci do in regards to FA, IA and imposed symbols.

[aleksandrov]

IME, ..Their logic as applied to Macedonian issues in RoM starts to resemble Greek and Bulgar propaganda respectively applied to Macedonians under their rule/occupation, e.g. Greeks use low vote numbers for Vinozhito or lack of mass protests to deny existence of a Macedonian indigenous minority and Bulgar authorities use their census data, amongst other rationale, to do the same. All the obstacles affecting Macedonians are conveniently ignored and the oppressive policies justified, ...

Good analogy.

[Soldier of Macedon]

IME, TM seems to have graduated from the same "Buktop and Koloski School of Geopolitics" as the rest of the UMD Drones.

In my opinion, that is a false and unwarranted statement, motivated by nothing other than (what seems a mutually) personal animosity.

[indigen]

In my opinion, that is a false and unwarranted statement, motivated by nothing other than (what seems a mutually) personal animosity.

Well, it is my estimation and I will (by editing my post) withdraw the drone bit and replace it with "crew". But, to me, TM's line of argument seems to be in tune to that of Buktop and TajnataKniga, Mastika and some others and Macedonians end up being blamed for all their predicaments without adequate consideration of oppressive policies imposed upon them.

The following, IME, is a good example of similar ideology emanating from our USA comrades:

UMD Announcements - Page 50 - Macedonian Truth Forum

Vangelovski
Its ironic listening to UMD talk about human rights and quote from Martin Luther King, while waving the ventilator that was imposed on us by the very government they are supposedly struggling against, showing their clear support for the Interim Accord that, among other unjust provisions, compels Macedonia NOT to support the rights of the Macedonian minority in Greece.

TajnataKniga
the star of kutlesh is and will always be the national and ethnic symbol of macedonians. the new flag is the flag of republic of macedonia, big difference. my family comes from aegean macedonia, so the new flag of macedonia doesnt 100% represent me.

the so-called 'ventilator' was not imposed on us by grease. what was imposed on us was changing our original flag, the star of kutlesh. miroslav grcev, a macedonian, designed the 'ventilator'.....

the 'ventilator' was adopted by 110 out of 115 parliament reps.

when gruevski came to australia, did you guys have the 'ventilator'?? ya, and it was one of the biggest 'ventilator's ive seen at any macedonian event anywhere: YouTube - Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski at the Hilton in Melbourne. you traitors!!! :-) guess gruevski also supports the interim accord and doesnt support human rights in grease, yet gruevski wrote a letter to ban kimun about human rights in grease in 2008. wait if the 'ventilator' is being flown at an australian event honoring gruevski, does that mean that all macedonians at the event support the interim accord?

wait you also have the australian flag, how could you? the flag of a country who doesnt recognize the international principle of self-determination, macedonia's name.

your rational is ridiculous...you had nothing to find in that whole speech to bash so you had to pick the 'ventilator' and then assume that they support the interim accord. the speech has nothing to even do with the interim accord.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=31702

[Bratot]

I'm sorry but that doesn't work that way. A play of words is one thing. Reality is another. I don't accept fyrom. I accept Macedonia only. But I accept the 8-ray flag you spit on because it was not drawn in a laboratory in Athens but is of Macedonian origin and maybe even ancient as well. I see your arguement and acknowledge your points. But by spitting on the new flag you are disrespecting Macedonia.

That's my point as well.

[indigen]

That's my point as well.

What exactly is your point, Brate?

I realize that persons under 30 years of age, who might be the majority of forum participants, would not really appreciate in any depth what really occurred between 1990-1995-97 and might only know the ventilator as the "official" state flag. And due to lack of major mainstream political contestation to its use, they might be a bit shocked running across some of us old timers running it down because they lived through the period when it was heavily contested and know how it was imposed and what it symbolises.

As it is, I don't think it should be our major focus at present but you young guns will need to learn a bit more about our recent history and accept our revulsion to it and stop justifying its adoption as if it was some democratic choice. In any event, the "Ramkoven dogovor" prevents any changes that the Shiptars will not agree to and only a victorious WAR (IMO, an unlikely case in our current situation) can change that.

[julie]

Indigen, thank you what a wonderful compliment
I may be in the under 30 age group with an almost 21 year old son , ha ha ha

[Bratot]

What exactly is your point, Brate?

I realize that persons under 30 years of age, who might be the majority of forum participants, would not really appreciate in any depth what really occurred between 1990-1995-97 and might only know the ventilator as the "official" state flag. And due to lack of major mainstream political contestation to its use, they might be a bit shocked running across some of us old timers running it down because they lived through the period when it was heavily contested and know how it was imposed and what it symbolises.

As it is, I don't think it should be our major focus at present but you young guns will need to learn a bit more about our recent history and accept our revulsion to it and stop justifying its adoption as if it was some democratic choice. In any event, the "Ramkoven dogovor" prevents any changes that the Shiptars will not agree to and only a victorious WAR (IMO, an unlikely case in our current situation) can change that.

How about you read my previous post and stop busting my balls with the 'age argument'.


It was NOT my generation that sold the flag at first place and maybe you should first adress your group of age ( the old guns ) and later you can come and test your assumptions over my views or history knowledge.


I personally grew up with 4 flags since my early education in the Republic and I wouldn't attach any 'ties' to the 16-rayed sun flag to any specific generation because that flag was only 3 years in official use if we share your 'logic'.

The 16 rayed flag for me is more than a "state flag" and I care it as part of my origin and my private life. Nor I feel any need to continue a further discussion with some single minded views on this subject, holding a position that everyone who doesn't agree in 100% with you is simply ideologically incompetent or maybe not enough patriotic.


I rarely say this since most of the people would take it as offensive... but sometimes, every one of us need to get a life ( as for a moment) and I honesty think this is one of those moments for you.

[TrueMacedonian]

If you weren't, you would have apologized for blatantly misrepresenting me by suggesting that I have made some statement about Aleksovski and others that I clearly have not.

I only assumed that your suggestions on what you stated on page 8 of this topic -

Feel-good historical revisionism won't change it, unless you choose to live in a bubble.

were a direct hit on Aleksovski and his work. Am I wrong?

What is the point of this open-ended question?

Everything is always open-ended with you. Just say you don't want to answer it and that's that.

Your opinion seems to be that we should respect an imposed flag that you admit is a product, and thereby a symbol of an act of oppression and treason, only because (you assume that) submissive Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia respect it. Why is that a poor assumption, given the ample evidence of it on this thread?

Here's your analogy of me (seems like you like these analogies alot, especially indy's analogy of me)

If people like Goce Delchev took your approach, they would have joined the majority of their own people in accepting and even 'respecting' slavery and the Ottoman flag as a reality, rather than committing themselves to rooting out the slave mentality of their people and rejecting the oppressor's impositions.

and from what I responded to you;

Poor assumption of me considering that I have stated my personal opinion on the matter on this same page and pages before that.

and on that very same page 19 I stated this to Vangelovski;

And believe me, in my opinion, they should have never ever ever given up the original (flag) under no circumstances.

as well as;

I much rather prefer the original flag myself.

I respect the 8 ray for same reasons many other Macedonians, in the diaspora and in the Republic, respect it.

You asked a loaded, rhetorical question about something that is not a fundamental consideration in the position I have taken regarding our flag, and have demonstrated a lack of willingness to give due consideration to relevant research and reasoning that doesn't suit your preconception.

There is no pre-conception about me. If I am wrong I have no problem admitting it. After all this is nothing more than a forum debate that will most likely begin again a few months from now because this is a famous question to ask.

Greek propagandists do that all the time when the claim that we allegedly plucked the Sun symbol out of ancient history in modern times, without it having been present in our culture in the intervening period.

You seem concerned about a bunch of imposter hellenes who wouldn't know their assholes from their elbows. If you don't know what I am about by now then I recommend you check out the History section and the Exposing lies and propaganda sections of this forum. I have no problem challenging theories. Especially ones that Macedonians come up with. And there is nothing wrong with doing so because I feel that we don't have anything to hide.

[TrueMacedonian]

In my opinion, that is a false and unwarranted statement, motivated by nothing other than (what seems a mutually) personal animosity.

It's all good SoM. Thanks for sticking up for me. I have no personal animosity towards indy. He's a bit on the eclectic side and I can understand why he's a bit bitter at me. Which is why I am not going to bother replying to him.

Alexandrov said;

Good analogy.

Poor analogy actually. Not only do I defend the Macedonians in Aegean & Pirin with passion but I have intentionally created these topics;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2215

and http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2527

for the sole interest in destroying Macedonia's neighbors propaganda. One post of which made the news in Macedonia. My family on my fathers side are originally from Pirin (some of which are still under oppresive rule). I've always been about uniting the diaspora into one force. I hope you have a better understanding of my intentions now.

[makedonche]

It's all good SoM. Thanks for sticking up for me. I have no personal animosity towards indy. He's a bit on the eclectic side and I can understand why he's a bit bitter at me. Which is why I am not going to bother replying to him.

Alexandrov said;


Poor analogy actually. Not only do I defend the Macedonians in Aegean & Pirin with passion but I have intentionally created these topics;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2215

and http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2527

for the sole interest in destroying Macedonia's neighbors propaganda. One post of which made the news in Macedonia. My family on my fathers side are originally from Pirin (some of which are still under oppresive rule). I've always been about uniting the diaspora into one force. I hope you have a better understanding of my intentions now.

TM
If you read my one little post in between all the rest, you may have noticed I picked up on the unity aspect you mention, of the diaspora and in fact all Macedonians.