Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[Vangelovski]

Good that you admit it.
In reality you are doing that more often than you want to admit.
Its your second nature. You should work on that a bit.

You are living proof that ignorance is bliss.

Hey tell me about the flat earth again, I have to refresh my memory and tell it as bed time story. Thanks in advance, I apppreciate your great "knowledge".

Makedonin, do you always need to make the last post no matter how stupid it makes you sound? Of all the posters here, you're the only one that bangs on about the flat earth strawman. Btw, do you actually know where the flat earth theory originated? Of course you don't! That's what makes it so funny. Anyone who knows how to use Google can see how much of an idiot you really are, making it out as if the flat earth theory was originated and promoted by Christians!

I see that you would much rather believe in the "evolution" of goo to man fairy tale, for which there is no actual evidence and which requires astronomical faith based on ignorance! Perhaps you can explain to us the 'information problem' or the fact that 'irreducible complexity' exists or maybe the fact that the idea of evolution is completely unobservable and unreproducible...hang on, that would make it unscientific!

[makedonin]

if the flat earth theory was originated and promoted by Christians

I was hoping you know how to click a link. My hopes are gone now... You disillusioned me. Ouch...

[Vangelovski]

I was hoping you know how to click a link. My hopes are gone now... You disillusioned me. Ouch...

Makedonin, try again. Do you know where/when the flat earth theory orginated? Do you know who/when promoted it?

[George S.]

TM regarding post 672 i will do my best to offer some sort of explanation:JUst remember that these writers were under the influence of god directly to write what they wrote.So the chopping & changing is all part of the narrative that all writers use today.JUst remember what the gospel was the good news or message about jesus christ.

Angels visit Joseph and Mary
Angels announced Christ's birth to Mary, Zacharias, and Joseph.

Gabriel and Mary
The angel Gabriel visited Mary in Nazareth. She was engaged to Joseph. Gabriel told Mary she would give birth to the Son of God.
Mary was a virgin. Gabriel told her God's power would make the conception possible. Gabriel said "Nothing will be impossible with God." He then told Mary her elderly relative, Elizabeth, was six months pregnant.

John the Baptist's parents
Before visiting Mary, Gabriel appeared to a priest named Zacharias. He and his wife, Elizabeth, were very old. Gabriel told Zacharias they would have a son named John. And that John would prepare the way of the Lord.
Mary visited Elizabeth in her 6th month. When Mary arrived, Elizabeth's baby leaped in her womb for joy. This confirmed Gabriel's prophecy that John would have the Holy Spirit while yet unborn.

Joseph's vision
Joseph considered calling off the marriage. He learned about the pregnancy after Mary had conceived. But, an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, and told him to marry her. The miraculous conception was caused by the Holy Spirit.
Joseph took Mary as his wife. He kept her a virgin until Jesus was born.

Insights
• With God, all things are possible.
• The unborn have a spirit.

Read
Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:5-2:45.
2 It’s obvious that it’s jesus.The angel told mary & joseph it’s to be named jesus.
3 wisemen /shepherds visited jesus.The shiny star is actually venus.
I just read about how luke is very detailed about the geneaology of jesus where as Mathew is not.Noticed certan things are amplified certain things are not even mentioned.How much in the accounts do we need to be perfect & mirror images.These were written under the command of god as to what to write,
4Why mention somethings twice & duplicate i suppose for emphasis.But the storyline shifts it’s about jesus.So if it doesn’t mention things ie of omission well it’s probably intended to be that way I think in each gospel it’s the focus & each one is telling their story a very unique esperience don’t you think?
5 The star is not really a star apparently it was venus .If it happened in one doesn’t mean it should be repeated.I think the writer has decided of not mentioning the star in other gospels as they wanted brevity.The fact that it wasn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it never happened.
6 Again it was mentioned in one book it doesn’t mean to be written in the other.The writer has decided to take out the manger bit as it may not habe relevance.The only relevance it has got is that it did happen as was mentioned but because it was not entered in the others has created doubt abot its everhappening.
7 The covering of those things about jesu’s birth is already covered in the other gospels why spend too much time when it can leap to other happenings of jesus more relevant.The writer would have known what was written before * being god guided would fully know what to write.

[George S.]

I mean't that from an archaelogical sense,phusical evidence but it doesn't detract because the bible has said it has occured.We are many times reminded that it's the power of god doing things as examples.

[George S.]

I find this thread very interesting where it's focusing on christianity.Perhaps we can have a thread on comparative religion comparing all the other religions of the world.Perhaps on a discovery to find the real truth on religion as most of it is man made not as god intended.Then who is the real god.

[indigen]

I found some interesting takes on the creationist concepts in following website/links:

Contrasting The Major Creation Models
Logical Faults and Strengths

http://www.kjvbible.org/major_models.html

Sediments, Fossils, and Noah's Flood. NOT!

http://www.kjvbible.org/sediment.html

Global Dust Spikes, Paleoclimate Indicators, and
Collapse of Civilizations All Correlate to Date of Noah's Flood

http://www.kjvbible.org/greenland_ice_sheet.html

*** More on the 'Windows of Heaven' of Noah's Flood
Before we discuss the atmospheric chain reaction that was triggered by the Fountains of the Deep, and the complexity of the "Windows of Heaven" component of the flood model (Genesis 7:11-12), we need to consider one of the most notable post-flood effects. Specifically, that according to the Bible, following the flood the life-spans of mankind dropped almost exponentially following the flood. Obviously, something in the Earth's post-flood environment was very different than before Noah's flood, because before the flood man lived to be just short of 1,000 years old. Below is a Life Span graph showing the ages of 23 men of the Bible from Adam to Joseph.

http://www.kjvbible.org/windows_of_heaven.html

Major Geological Event After Noah's Flood

Question: Noah's Ark came to rest on a mountain range in an area which is now called Turkey. How did humans and animals quickly migrate to the other continents like Australia and North America, which are presently separated by the seas?

To begin to answer this important question we must examine another lesser-known, but important event that occurred on the Earth about one hundred years after Noah's flood:

http://www.kjvbible.org/peleg.html

***Life Forms Just Before End of Ice Age
and After Seven Days of Genesis

http://www.kjvbible.org/lifeform.html

***Subject: 12,000-Year-Old Human Hair DNA
Has No Match With Modern Humans

http://www.kjvbible.org/earthfilesstory.html

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The Evolution of "Bible-Science"
Young Earth Creationists, Geocentrists, and Flat Earthers
The Evolution of "Bible-Science" : Young Earthers, Geocentrists, and Flat Earthers

Scientists Confront Creationism edited by Laurie R. Godfrey (Norton, 1984)adapted from the chapter by Robert J. Schadewald in Scientists Confront Creationism, edited by Laurie R. Godfrey (Norton paperback, 1984)

For two thousand years, various groups of biblical dogmatists have tried to force the universe to fit their interpretation of Scripture. They have judged and rejected scientific evidence and explanations according to the standard of their own religious beliefs. On scriptural grounds, some have rejected (and continue to reject) the sphericity of the earth, the Copernican system, and the evolution of life on an ancient earth (c. 4.5 billion years old). In the last two centuries, flat-earthers, geocentrists, and young-earth creationists have adopted a label for their dogmas: "Bible-science." This term was embraced in nineteenth-century England, for example, by the flat-earth "Bible-Science Defence Association" and in twentienth-century America by the creationist "Bible-Science Association."

Bible-scientists have waged war on mainstream science. By the early nineteenth century, most Bible-scientists had resigned themselves to living on a spherical earth that orbits the sun. Then they were confronted with a triple threat. First, a mass of evidence had convinced most geologists that the earth was very old and that various forms of life had appeared (and most became extinct and disappeared) on it sequentially over a long period of time. Secondly, geologists could find no evidence of a world-wide Deluge (the universal Flood of Noah). And finally, in 1859, Charles Darwin presented a huge amount of evidence that life on earth had indeed evolved, and he proposed a theory that accounted for the proliferation of life on earth in terms of natural processes. Such ideas directly contradicted a literal interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis. The alarmed Bible-scientists launched an attack on conventional science that continues to this day.

The Origins of "Bible-Science"
"Scientific creationism" is the watchword of Bible-science. Its ambitious aim is to reestablish Genesis as the ultimate authority in geology, biology, and cosmology. Since scientific creationism represents a continuation of a long tradition, it is difficult to assign a date to its genesis. Some trace its origin to the publication of The Genesis Flood by theologian John C. Whitcomb, Jr. and engineer Henry M. Morris in 1961. This book argues that the Noachian Deluge accounts for the geological evidence better than conventional geology. In it and subsequent books, the creationists have offered arguments to show that the earth is only six to ten thousand years old and that all forms of life were separately created.

Soon after The Genesis Flood was published, two of the major creationist organizations, the Bible-Science Association and the Creation Research Society, were formed. The third major group, the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), was organized in 1970 with Henry M. Morris as director. Individually and collectively, through books, pamphlets, public lectures and debates, these creationists took their message to their constituents.

In public, modern creationists march under the banner of science itself. In books and lectures intended for the skeptical public, they avoid mention of God and the Bible and make a great pother about science. Addressing fundamentalist Christian believers, they tell a different story. They insist that modern geology and the theory of evolution are affronts to the Bible. In place of them they offer a complex pseudo-science they call "scientific creationism," of which "Flood Geology" is the central dogma. Flood Geology is totally rejected by conventional geologists. As Whitcomb and Morris write,

"Many thousands of trained geologists, most of them sincere and honest in their conviction of the correctness of their interpretation of the geologic data, present an almost unanimous verdict against the Biblical accounts of creation and the Flood...."

Nonetheless, they insisted that such professional opinions must be misguided, since

"the instructed Christian knows that the evidences for full divine inspiration of Scripture are far weightier than the evidences for any fact of science. When confronted with the consistent Biblical testimony to a universal Flood, the believer must certainly accept it as unquestionably true." (1961, p. 118)

[....]

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p43.htm

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I am interested to know what the creationist, especially the "Young Earth" proponents, say about the lifeforms that supposedly survived the "Flood of Noah", i.e. is all life on earth today supposed to originate from what "Dedo Noe" collected on his boat?

[George S.]

I don't know if this helps Noah was commanded to take two of everything.Everything that he was told to take.I think the flood was more designed to kill off just the humans rather than kill everything,For exanple how is it going to kill off the marine life.So i think the flood was mainly designed to kill off sinfull man.God has means & ways of protecting the animals.It's my view that given the size of the boat there's no way that noah could've taken two of every living creature that's on the earth.It would be next to impossible.

[Delodephius]

YouTube - ‪People are returning to the ancient ways‬‏

[Onur]

Delodephious, i think this will suit you best by being a so-called European citizen;

YouTube - ‪Traditional Greek Religious people‬‏

I would support building a Zeus temple in the Brussels. Hail Zeus!!!


But someone gotta remind those Greek pagans that the banging drums in rituals belongs to Eurasia, central Asia. It`s eastern shamanic, not Greek paganic. I think this happens when people decides to get into the paganism after watching some cool movies and listening melodic death metal music

[Delodephius]

But someone gotta remind those Greek pagans that the banging drums in rituals belongs to Eurasia, central Asia.

Everything belongs to everybody or nothing belongs to nobody.

Enjoy some of my little town's own metal music. My cousin plays the electric guitar.
YouTube - ‪Dark Dawn - Redshift‬‏

[Onur]

Enjoy some of my little town's own metal music. My cousin plays the electric guitar.

Thats too much brutal for my taste but i gotta say that their sound is great


Paganism for you and this would suit for me i guess ;
YouTube - ‪Tuvan Internationale‬‏

Actually this is even more brutal than your cousin`s band

[Delodephius]

I don't hate the Turks or the Turkish world, in fact I'm quite interested in Tengriism and other Shamanisms. I just hate it when people think that what is their's is better and only belongs to them or that what their ancestors created or invented belongs to them, and on the same note that which originates in the lands we're from belongs to us. To me everything in this Universe is mine much as everybody else's. So if I want to convert to some far off religion, or get myself some shamanistic tattoos, or decorate my house with paper charms with Chinese characters on them, or adopt a black Muslim child from Chad and call him Miroslav, and still call myself a Slovak and live in a Slovak community, I expect that others acknowledge that it is my choice and that I am not doing anything wrong. And if anyone does, well go get yourself a course on elementary logic coz I ain't doing anything illogical or impossible (the very fact that I do proves it is not).

YouTube - ‪Percival - Jomsborg viking and slavic music‬‏

YouTube - ‪Å»ywioÅ‚ak - Epopeja Wandalska‬‏

[Onur]

These are modern interpretations but both videos was great, thanks.

If you are interested, this is a shamanic music band from Kazakhstan. These songs and the instruments are at least 1300-1500 years old. The hand-cymbals in the guy`s hand is a replica of a real shaman cymbal with sun symbol, from an archaeological grave of 1800-2000 years old. I saw the picture of the original one b4;

YouTube - ‪Ensemble "Turan"‬‏

YouTube - ‪Ensemble "Turan"‬‏


I watched them live in Turkey b4. It really takes you to an outer world.

[indigen]

I am interested to know what the creationist, especially the "Young Earth" proponents, say about the lifeforms that supposedly survived the "Flood of Noah", i.e. is all life on earth today supposed to originate from what "Dedo Noe" collected on his boat?

I don't know if this helps Noah was commanded to take two of everything. Everything that he was told to take. I think the flood was more designed to kill off just the humans rather than kill everything, For example how is it going to kill off the marine life.

Mate, either you believe the Bible flood myth or you don't, IMHO! Given the immense diversity of life that is environmentally specialized on our planet earth, I doubt that it would be possible to do that even today, e.g. by using an aircraft carrier and its crew plus the resources of the superpower state such as the USA, let alone in a technological primitive age of 5,000 years ago. There are obvious absurdities to the story if it is taken literally, IMHO. For example, how did Noah come to Australia and grab all the unique marsupial pairs and take them back to middle east and how did they come back to Australia without breeding along the way and what did they eat when they got off of the Ark? ))

So i think the flood was mainly designed to kill off sinfull man. God has means & ways of protecting the animals.

Is this view held by any of the creationist creeds/strands or is this just your own improvisation? Given the amount of supposed fresh water dumped on to salt water oceans and its mixing, I should think that at least it would affect a fair amount of marine life. Secondly where would such amount of water go after all land was submerged? What would happen to freshwater fish and marine life after it was mixed with saltwater from oceans?

It's my view that given the size of the boat there's no way that Noah could've taken two of every living creature that's on the earth.It would be next to impossible.

Yeah, given that the earth would be desolate (no plant or animal life) after they come off of the boat, what would they feed on and how long would the two sheep and two goats last among the hungry wolves, hyenas, cheetahs, lions, tigers, and etc.? ))