Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[Vangelovski]

The point is, why so much variety, why create animals that are only suited to a particular environment, why create delicate ecosystems, why create microbes that can exist in the harshest imaginable conditions, including animals that can exist in extreme pressure environments devoid of sunlight...

Wouldn't logic dictate the creation of lesser numbers of species that are interchangeable in a wider environment, a ecosystem that is more robust...why is it so complicated and varied...what is the purpose of its complication and variation...?

Why not the variety? Why would logic dictate the creation of lesser numbers of species? None of that disproves creation or proves evolution.

If anything, diversity and complexity just shows the glory of God. If we view it through the evolutionary theory, how many chance/fluke mutations would have been required for that diversity and complexity?? Its incalculable!

[Vangelovski]

Absurdity in it self, thus you gonna start rationalize and read in new scientific knowledge about DNA and other stuff in Genesis that in actuality does not exists, and pretend that the Bible knew it already although in the original text there is no sign of the things you claim.

Again, you're confusing what the Bible is. It never claimed to be a science textbook. Why on earth would it include information about DNA when its primary theme is God and our relationship with him. Amatuer atheism at its worst!

[Phoenix]

That doesn't make sense at all. The bible explains the diversity of races and if you were a creator wouldn't it be logical to create animals that would be suited to certain environments would you create the variations in the physical world. It doesn't make sense your statement at all there is no point to it and the argument is pointless.

Are you trying to suggest that God doesn't exist because everything is so diverse and suited to it's environment? Would you believe in God if Earth was a giant desert which only contained humans all of which looked the same and had no differences what so ever and that there was whales on that desert? Because that is what your suggesting, your complaining as to why animals are so suited to their habitat and the diverisity of the planet.

The point is, why so much variety, why create animals that are only suited to a particular environment, why create delicate ecosystems, why create microbes that can exist in the harshest imaginable conditions, including animals that can exist in extreme pressure environments devoid of sunlight...

Wouldn't logic dictate the creation of lesser numbers of species that are interchangeable in a wider environment, a ecosystem that is more robust...why is it so complicated and varied...what is the purpose of its complication and variation...?

[Vangelovski]

Professor George Wald (a Harvard biologist):

“There are only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation, that life arose from non-living matter, was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with the only possible conclusion that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God. I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible: spontaneous generation arising to evolution.” (‘Scientific American’ 199, September 1958, p.100).

[Vangelovski]

Professor Richard Lewontin (a Harvard geneticist and atheist):

“We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs…in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so-stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.” [bold italics in original text]. (The New York Review of Books, 9 January 1997, p.31).

[Vangelovski]

Your fine tuning argument pales if you start reading quantum theory, go read for your self. For the macro universe the so called fine tuning is well explained through gravity, mass and billions of Years of elapsing time. It is only natural that after large amount of time equilibrium will be established.

Maybe you'd like to explain it to us, seeing as you uderstand it so well?

[vojnik]

TV, if we're to believe in the creationist model why have we so many varied races amongst humanity and why is the animal kingdom so rich in its diversity...why do we have so many variations in the physical world of our planet...and yet, apart from human kind, nearly every other animal is unique to its physical environment on the planet.

That doesn't make sense at all. The bible explains the diversity of races and if you were a creator wouldn't it be logical to create animals that would be suited to certain environments would you create the variations in the physical world. It doesn't make sense your statement at all there is no point to it and the argument is pointless.

Are you trying to suggest that God doesn't exist because everything is so diverse and suited to it's environment? Would you believe in God if Earth was a giant desert which only contained humans all of which looked the same and had no differences what so ever and that there was whales on that desert? Because that is what your suggesting, your complaining as to why animals are so suited to their habitat and the diverisity of the planet.

[Vangelovski]

TV, if we're to believe in the creationist model why have we so many varied races amongst humanity and why is the animal kingdom so rich in its diversity...why do we have so many variations in the physical world of our planet...and yet, apart from human kind, nearly every other animal is unique to its physical environment on the planet.

How is that evidence for evolution? What is it about diversity that you believe can only be produced by evolution and not God creating it all?

[makedonin]

Vangelovski, for someone who takes the Genesis creation story LITERALLY, you really are kin of reinterpreting it when you start babbling about fine tuning and other pseudo stuff.

Your fine tuning argument pales if you start reading quantum theory, go read for your self. For the macro universe the so called fine tuning is well explained through gravity, mass and billions of Years of elapsing time. It is only natural that after large amount of time equilibrium will be established.

Anyways, you talk against evolution, but take literally Genesis 2:7 that God created man from DUST OF THE GROUND.

Absurdity in it self, thus you gonna start rationalize and read in new scientific knowledge about DNA and other stuff in Genesis that in actuality does not exists, and pretend that the Bible knew it already although in the original text there is no sign of the things you claim.

And than you expect that people take you serious and debate with you, come on ...

[Phoenix]

Why do you believe this?

TV, if we're to believe in the creationist model why have we so many varied races amongst humanity and why is the animal kingdom so rich in its diversity...why do we have so many variations in the physical world of our planet...and yet, apart from human kind, nearly every other animal is unique to its physical environment on the planet.

[Bill77]

Bill, the reality is that nobody knows...what we know in science today we had no idea, 50, 100 or 200 years ago and we as a species will continue to gain knowledge but it will never be a definitive, finite journey. There will be plenty of room for a God or Gods to exist for those who seek such comfort...

Science can help explain how things were created, how they work. Bible tells us only who created and what. I really can't see how the two clash. I hope Science can show us more of how God has made things work. This is where i stand.

Ok my opinion on that question is that we are all descendants of Noah's offspring etc, which member of his family the Modern Greeks belong to I am unsure we would have to find which member there various ancestors came from i.e the Turkish Mongolians etc. My belief is that we come from Kittim where as the ANCIENT Greeks came from Elishah.

Well i was not aware of Elishah till you brought it up. It sounds like the birth place of science around 1000bc (Ionia) was well after Javan settled there. But i will say again, Javan....then later Elishah did not produce Hellenes as an Ethnicity group but a way of thinking. Well that's according to the Bible. This false thinking by modern Greeks can be proven regardless if you believe the bible or not.


Sorry if the ending is short and does not make sense, but i just heard news there is a bomb scare or warning in the pentagon which has distracted me. Stay tuned.......

[Vangelovski]

What are you, TV's man servant or something...?

Lets keep it clean Phoenix.

[Vangelovski]

I believe that creationism has been exposed as a flawed model of our existence.

Why do you believe this?

[vojnik]

Vojnik, can you go back to your original question of this thread? come on mate, i think its an important subject.

Are Modern Greeks descendants of Javan.

Ok my opinion on that question is that we are all descendants of Noah's offspring etc, which member of his family the Modern Greeks belong to I am unsure we would have to find which member there various ancestors came from i.e the Turkish Mongolians etc. My belief is that we come from Kittim where as the ANCIENT Greeks came from Elishah.

[Phoenix]

Spot on mate. neither side needs to feel threatened. Each to their own. I might lay my faith on religion, you on Science, why does it matter.

Bill, the reality is that nobody knows...what we know in science today we had no idea, 50, 100 or 200 years ago and we as a species will continue to gain knowledge but it will never be a definitive, finite journey. There will be plenty of room for a God or Gods to exist for those who seek such comfort...