Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[Vangelovski]

Indigen,

You claim that Noah must rely on natural means to accomplish God's will, while completely discounting God's supernatural abilities. If God exists, then the Noah story is certainly credible. Its just that you have not really looked into it.

If you're actually interested in having an in-depth read, let me know, I can point you in the direction of a number of experiments that have been conduced by various professionals.

There seems to be an expectation among atheists that everything must be examined according to their naturalistic/materialistic worldview.

[George S.]

I keep having to repeat myself that people underestimate god's power,God can take someone's life & give it back.God designed & made the universe.We want answers to everything we are not going to get them as there is the word FAITH i hope people know what that means.The flood was real & god created the flood to punish man.So if god told noah to get 2 of everything that he commanded that does not mean he had the total animal & plant population.Even if god destroyed all vegetation & other animals by the big flood he would've recreated any animals he wished.You are limiting god to humans.God is a allwise,all seeing all knowing god.He knows what he is doing.
At the end of the flood he promised mankind he would not punsih man for their sin by bringing floods like that he made a rainbow as a reminder to man that god won't forget his promise.Just remember that noah & his family were the only righous people before god & he chose to save them in a particular way.It is god working out miracles & we have clearly underestimated god's power.

[indigen]

Indigen,

There seems to be an expectation among atheists that everything must be examined according to their naturalistic/materialistic worldview.

Yeah, everybody who does not adhere to "Young Earth" dogma is automatically labeled an "Atheist" and/or a "Darwinist"!

Second, I thought the YEC ideology was science based and thus I don't see why you should worry or complain about things being examined from a naturalistic (laws of nature) world view.

You claim that Noah must rely on natural means to accomplish God's will,

I was not aware that God recreated the World again at the time of the supposed flood but that he rather wiped out (according to creationist ideology) a big part of his creations, which, IMO, would make him out to be a rather careless creator and quite cruel to nature and animal life.

while completely discounting God's supernatural abilities.

Not exactly true.

If God exists, then the Noah story is certainly credible. Its just that you have not really looked into it.

Well, there are quite a number of scientists who believe in God and evolution but NOT in the credibility of Noah's story, at least not in the way creationists are interpreting it today.

If you're actually interested in having an in-depth read, let me know, I can point you in the direction of a number of experiments that have been conduced by various professionals.

I am only interested in how the "Noah Flood" story is actually transmitted in the Bible and how it is received/perceived by creationist adherents today and whether it can withstand scientific scrutiny using the laws of nature known today.

[George S.]

If people only read the bible they will see a message & that message is obedience & the love of god,Also a healthy fear & respect of who god is.The people of the time did not honour god or respect him as god,they blasphemed & worshiped baal which was a god that man made.They forgot like some peole today that there is a real god that want's obedience & real worship of.The peole apart from noah were very sinfull & god had to punish them for their sins.
Heaven is where god & jesus live but the earth is gods footstool.God is providing mankind a way out of this world of death & destruction & saves them with his son jesus christ.We will have the oportunity of eternal life,holy righous character through the holyspirit dwelling in us,That will be god dwelling literally in us.We will be eventually spirit beings begotten from the father,living forever in the god family.That is the message of the gospel for mankind.But there are requirements of believing & acceptance of jesus as saviour.Then in the next life you may if found worthy partake in the god family.

[Vangelovski]

Yeah, everybody who does not adhere to "Young Earth" dogma is automatically labeled an "Atheist" and/or a "Darwinist"! .

No

Second, I thought the YEC ideology was science based and thus I don't see why you should worry or complain about things being examined from a naturalistic (laws of nature) world view.

What does YEC have to do with Noah collecting the animals?

I was not aware that God recreated the World again at the time of the supposed flood but that he rather wiped out (according to creationist ideology) a big part of his creations, which, IMO, would make him out to be a rather careless creator and quite cruel to nature and animal life.

You don't seem to have read Noah's story - you've got it all jumbled up.

Not exactly true.

Really, how so?

Well, there are quite a number of scientists who believe in God and evolution but NOT in the credibility of Noah's story, at least not in the way creationists are interpreting it today.

I know. What's you're point? There are many scientists that do believe in Noah's story. What do you mean by "they way creationists are interpreting it today" as opposed to the way its always been understood?

I am only interested in how the "Noah Flood" story is actually transmitted in the Bible and how it is received/perceived by creationist adherents today and whether it can withstand scientific scrutiny using the laws of nature known today.

So you are discounting God's supernatural power! I thought you were claiming objectivity...or was that someone else...

You want to examine God, but you want to isolate that examination to only one aspect of human reason. Why is that? Why, for example, would you exclude moral, historical, teleological or ontological examinaitons?

Anyway, Indigen, I wouldn't be too worried about Noah if I were you. I would be more concerned about your belief in evolution - that takes much more faith!

[George S.]

Man must ultimately choose which master he serves he cannot serve god or the material world.What man chooses in this life may bring unhapiness,death & destruction.If man want's to choose wisely it must be heavenly things that are of god.Things of god are not made of earthly stuff god is of the spirit not subject to change & or decay.If people choose god then they will choose everlasting life,a life of hapiness no bounds.They will have things added a hundred fold & teaming over.So if you choose god you will be a winner & is a ticket to paradise on earth.Jesus is coming back to resurrect the dead & give those desrving everlasting life so that they may know him.That is God is doing his thing to show to mankind that he is god.Can someone else do what god is doing & what he prposes in his bible .i don't think so.

[Vangelovski]

Man must ultimately choose which master he serves he cannot serve god or the material world.What man chooses in this life may bring unhapiness,death & destruction.If man want's to choose wisely it must be heavenly things that are of god.Things of god are not made of earthly stuff god is of the spirit not subject to change & or decay.If people choose god then they will choose everlasting life,a life of hapiness no bounds.They will have things added a hundred fold & teaming over.So if you choose god you will be a winner & is a ticket to paradise on earth.Jesus is coming back to resurrect the dead & give those desrving everlasting life so that they may know him.That is God is doing his thing to show to mankind that he is god.Can someone else do what god is doing & what he prposes in his bible .i don't think so.

God himself came down to earth to die a substitutionary death on the cross and raised himself three days later and people still did not believe him. Not enough evidence they said! It seems they are still saying that today, yet they are more than happy to believe fantastical stories of evolution and existence from nothing!

[George S.]

When we think of life over death we don't think that god has power over life & death.People don't think that god has power to give life everlasting but he can.He can doi it & the secret is out through jesus christ who is his son.The first born of god.God is going to save mankind from death those who desrve to be saved will get eternal life & those that don't will get hell.
So we have to make a choice in this life what do we want .This life which is short or do we want eternal life.I'm pretty sure you would choose eternal life.But let's be honest some people don't even beleive that there is a god.God is not going to waste his time with them because it's like someone building a house on sand & you know what happens the house falls& one who beleives in god has solid foundations & there is no risk of the house falling That is the case with god ,god is rock solid if you want his commitment to you.He will never fail you.But you have to repent, beleive on him & accept jesus as your saviour,In other words you have to change your life by becoming influenced by the holy spirit.You will receive the faith of the saints.That is unshakable faith,real faith in god.So god will perform his pro,ise to look after you by feeding you with the right knowledge of god,the right behaviour,You will get real hekp when you pray with real answers to your life's needs.But you have to yield to gods power & to gods mercy.God is a loving god he wan'ts what is best for you.Do people know how mercifull god is & do they know god's love for mankind how much he really cares & loves mankind.He loves it to give it eternal life as a gift,He has made man in his image & with the potential to become god beings in the god family.It says in revelation that jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron along with all those selected & they will be kings & priests in gods kingdom.Just think about is there something more worthy on earth compared to what god has instore for people??i doubt it,if it were offered to you would you honestly let go of it of course you wouldn't.In isaih it mentions a comparison of man & god .Man is like nought & counted like nothing because god is so powerfull.God demands from his creation that we pay homage,we have to give due respect,that is in the tenth commandments love god with all your heart & mind,not to worship other gods or create images of god.There are other commndments but these deal with how you live with your neighbour.Just remember that god so loved mankind that he gave his only begotten son so that they may have life eternal.His son jesus paid the ultimate price for mankind.In reality there's really nothing much for us to do only repent,receive & veleive in jesus christ.So GOD is a loving father!

[George S.]

TOM i'm getting sick & tired of the excuses people are making to refute the bible.THey think it's better to disbeleive there is a god,They don't weigh the more important things in the bible but concentrate on trivial unimportant things.Once again which foundation do people want for their house,sand,or rock solid???Man thinks that thay what god reveals in the bible are foolish.People don't have faith & so they beleive their own foolish ways,they will lead to death & desrtruction.

[Phoenix]

I keep having to repeat myself that people underestimate god's power...

That's a rather 'convenient' leap of faith...when it suits, you put it down to "underestimating gods power"...but when you refuse to entertain any evolutionary ideas you don't seem to be as liberal with the possibilities and probabilities that shroud evolution theory.

[George S.]

Phoenix Let me explain people do not beleive there is a god so they develop their own god science who tells them that everytrhing came all on it's own just happened.The universe has no design & no creator it all just happened.The people have no purpose they just evolved from monkeys.What ajoke.
On the other side there is a creator god who designed & MADE EVERYTHING IN THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE.His biggest plan is to reproduce himself in man after all he produced man in gods image.Man's future under science is very unsecure.Mans future under god is very bright indeed.Under science man simply dies & there is no hope of returning.Under god you can get to become part of god & live forever,Inlimited hapiness,eternal bliss.
Wheras with science you have no hope of salvation.Man has developed weapons of mass destruction,Man folows his evil ways.God says he rules the universe.Science relies on observation for proof.Wheras christianity requires faith & obedience to god.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix Let me explain people do not beleive there is a god so they develop their own god science who tells them that everytrhing came all on it's own just happened.The universe has no design & no creator it all just happened.The people have no purpose they just evolved from monkeys.What ajoke.
On the other side there is a creator god who designed & MADE EVERYTHING IN THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE.His biggest plan is to reproduce himself in man after all he produced man in gods image.Man's future under science is very unsecure.Mans future under god is very bright indeed.Under science man simply dies & there is no hope of returning.Under god you can get to become part of god & live forever,Inlimited hapiness,eternal bliss.
Wheras with science you have no hope of salvation.Man has developed weapons of mass destruction,Man folows his evil ways.God says he rules the universe.Science relies on observation for proof.Wheras christianity requires faith & obedience to god.

GS, what does the Bible tell us about the physical universe (beyond our planet)...?

[Vangelovski]

GS, what does the Bible tell us about the physical universe (beyond our planet)...?

Why does it need to tell us anything about the physical universe full stop? When did the Bible claim to be a science book? What relevance does your question have?

The Bible reveals God to us and what He wants from us. Any additional information about the physical universe is incidental to the main theme.

[George S.]

It depends what you want to know.God designed the universe,the heaven & the stars.The heaven is for gods domain,The stars are meant to shine in the night.(to seperate night from day).What it means that all phisical things were created by god a super being,called god,all powerfull,all knowing ,omniprescent,He is theonly god & it is him whom we must obey & pay homage to.
In comparison ,mans god is science which tells you nothing everything just evolved from nothing.
Science cannot explain where matter came from.Matter must have been created it can't come from nothing.

[makedonin]

healthy fear

What is that suppose to mean? The fear that is talked about in the Bible is one of dread and terror:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12 (1)

The Greek word for fear is phobos:

φόβοςflightφόβος alarm or fright
Derivation: from a primary φέβομαι (to be put in fear);
KJV Usage: be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.
Thayer:1) fear, dread, terror
1a) that which strikes terror
2) reverence for one's husband
(source)

and

τρόμοςa trembling, quaking, quiveringτρόμος a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear
Derivation: from G5141;
KJV Usage: + tremble(-ing). G5141
Thayer:1) a trembling or quaking with fear
2) with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty
(source)

Those words have clear meaning, to be afraid, to live in dread of some event or condition, just like Paul wrote to the Ephesians that slaves should obey their masters with fear(φόβου) and trembling(τρόμου) (Ephesians 6:5).

There is nothing healthy in that state of mind.

But we are told that:

There is no fear (φόβον) in love; but perfect love casteth out fear (φόβος): because fear hath torment(punishment, κόλασις) . He that feareth(φοβούμενος) is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.

1John 4:18-19

Why is there need to labour with "fear and trembling" if love has no element of fear in it and Christians serve their god out of love and gratitude?

If this is so, then their faith is based on fear, not love, since love is supposed to have no element of fear in it, that love is supposed to drive away fear.

But why do Christians fear their god so if he's been so good to them?

One word: hellfire.

That's why they serve with fear and trembling. It isn't love, it isn't gratitude, it fear of hell; and their own scriptures prove it.

That's how they get people to believe their so-called "Good News of Jesus:" they try to instill in them a fear of hell, knowing full well that people often fear what they don't know with certainty and what they suspect could be true.

Love, gratitude, or even a reasoned choice, have nothing to do with it: fear is the operative word here, the driving component.