Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[Soldier of Macedon]

I watched a movie last night called Sunset Limited, it stars Samuel L. Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones. It is relevant to this discussion because the movie is based on a conversation between the two of them, mainly relating to perceptions of God, the Bible, life after death, etc. Some of you may find it interesting.

[makedonin]

“This kind of demon, cannot be driven out but by prayer and fasting.”

Why is it that miracles happen only to those who believe?
To believe simply means to "hold dear, love" and comes from PIE base *leubh- "to like, desire" (source).

Obviously those who want to believe miracle already have the mind set with reduced or if at all present capacity to critically analyze, because they desire so, they need miracle because of their own needs.

Obviously those in Jesus hometown knew him and did not believe his prophet game, therefore:

.... he could there do no mighty work (miracles)...
Mark 6:1-6

but allegedly laid his hands on certain people in need, and" healed them".

So either the Christian God is not almighty or Jesus is not God!

I mean, for a prophet, as the story tells us in Mark, it is understandable why he needs gullible people for his "miracles", but for a God, come on, let's get serious....

[Zarni]

Sunset yes I have seen that too
the entire movie is set between the two, one kitchen table in a stingy apartment it both is fascinating in a way and the same time hard to watch

Did you get through the whole movie Som

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yeah I did Zarni, and I know what you mean by being hard to watch. What sold me initially was the fact that both of them were in the movie, but when I noticed that the whole setting was in that shabby apartment I was thinking how good can this movie actually be. It is no block-buster, but I think it's a good movie and given the discussions on this thread I found myself interested because some of the perspectives shared here are also shared in the movie, except for the hard-core dark side that Tommy Lee had which revealed itself completely at the end of the movie. I also think Samuel L. Jackson did a good job arguing in favour of the Bible, but the person he was trying to save didn't want to be saved. All in all, not a bad movie for anybody interested in the debate between creationism vs evolution.

[Risto the Great]

You made it sound more interesting now SoM. I better watch it .... as soon as Family Guy is finished lol.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Lol, just don't let it appeal to your dark side too much

[SirGeorge8600]

Well I don't mean to cause steam, but it seems that religion still has it's place in the Balkans. Macedonia and Greece for example are known for being well over 90-95% religious (Christian) and they compare to countries like Poland, Bavaria (region), Ukraine, and Italy by doing so.

However, while I am not an atheist/agnostic...more of a pantheist, I agree with many philosophers on their views of God. I believe God controls nature in such a complex and uniformly organized way to make things happen miraculously. Science is so damn complex in such a perfect way, almost as if the universe is a ginormous Rolex watch. I myself study biological sciences in school and even quantum physics on my free time and it truly is fascinating.

While I am unsure of any sons of God having ever existed (Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha), I believe organized religion has been designed to not only preach morals to the masses but inversely work as a politico to gain votes from the masses in a democracy, to exploit people either economically or physically (military), or to put emphasis on nationalism for the selfish gain of a sovereign. Of course these things aren't all in the modern day but span out through the vastness of history (ie. Paganism, Crusades, religious empires, imperialism, etc.)

Ever since ancient times philosophers like Plato or Aristotle couldn't fit the myth of Zeus into their forms or categories or their early understanding of the sciences. If one reads Aristotle's work on Nature you will see that he opens up humans and orangutans to compare their organs (origin of evolution?). Philosophers and scientists have always struggled with organized religion and I feel safe to say there hasn't been a single one who has followed it by the book purely. The two most Christian philosophers you have might be St. Augustine and Anselm, but even they could not stay with the Bible or any other religion as a means to trying to understand God and morals.

I believe in David Hume when he says God is one with nature... he also said there has never been a single whim of evidence for any miracle throughout the history of man, not in religious books or witness accounts, and people who realize miracles are either undermining a rational and naturalistic explanation or lived in a time when the rational explanation did not yet exist. Ie. Lighting in ancient times was perceived purely as God interacting directly with earth, when now we know it's not. We also used to think God was responsible for bloodlines and their effects when now we have genetics to perfectly explain it.

As for evolution, I hate to bear dread, but it has all of it's facts on the board...the reason it's still called a theory is because it doesn't have around 6-5% of it's root ancestral gene/fossil record... yet it's a vast science with tons of experts performing scientific methodology to conduct empirical results daily; not to mention tons of other fields and technologies span from evolutionary biology such as medications, genome projects, and anthropology. Creationism on the other hand put's itself only in one place...the Holy Bible...the same Bible which as Hume stated is filled with miracles that have no evidence...this isn't to say it's morals, historical record, or claim of Jesus Christ is false though.

In order to believe in Creationism, one would have to believe that the devil purposely planted all fossils, dinosaur bones, and aged rocks/minerals below the earth for us to purposely find. A creationist would also have to give a pretty good explanation as to why this Earth is so very small in such a vast super-mega universe. Maybe human perceptions of space and time are psychological and physiological? Ie. Colors don't really exist, our eyes are simply designed in ways which allow photons from light to be perceived by their different wavelengths thus causing color to be perceived.

[Voltron]

I dont buy the reasoning that religion is used to control the masses. You would have a stronger argument by replacing religion with the word facebook in that statement.
Religion is a "faith" not a "science". That does not mean the both cannot co-exist together.

Atheists make me sick to my stomach and they are just as bad as religous wackjobs. They really managed to pull a number in the US and today my home country is slowly decaying into a bunch of sheep that do not know any better. Kids are screwed up more than ever, morals are thrown out the window, and ppl are so God damn complacent its not even funny. They protest against Christmas trees and the word God, but have no problem seeing their daughters get fucked by the time they reach 15.

Religion does instill a set of morals whether you believe in God or not. To me that is enough. If I wasnt raised in a traditional Christian background, who knows what I would have done. I mean what would be the point in following laws that are created by your fellow man ? Who are they to dictate what I can or cannot do ?

Mind you I am borderline agnostic, but I still follow Christian traditions regardless of how I feel. I will raise my kids the same. Even If I do believe its all make believe.

[George S.]

I'm finding that there is a lot of bs when it comes to the real practicising religion.Take it this way there are so called a lot of beleivers out there who wear christian crosses & say they are christians & don't practice christianity i mean of loving your neighbour instead we have real hate & paranoia.A case in point is that macedonia has not done anything to deserve what it has got from it's neighbours not just from greece.THe macedonian people can be just as christian as you can get & we still see the bad side of nations.Religion is supposed to instill values or morals .Yes religion seems to be all make beleive as man continues his injustices on fellow man.

[Voltron]

Dont mix politics into this equation George. There is politics in the Christian Church and Im sure we can all agree to that. That does not mean that what is being preached in Church is worthless. Each person takes in as much as they want and sometimes walk away a better person.

[George S.]

Voltron i'ts not just that you have your orthodox church hand in hand with the government.Your church being christian has not really condemned your govt for the bad things it has done as a matter of fact it made sure that the greek govt policies of assimilation were carried out not to mention defrocking any priests that cares to carry on with the practice of teaching macedonian orthodox.Have you heard of the Tsarknias case of what your church did & others.So don't tell me that we should'nt mix religion & politics in your case it's not only mixed but mixed up.In greece the church has a lot to play in hellenising it's followers especially when they happen to be macedonian.

[Voltron]

So don't tell me that we should'nt mix religion & politics in your case it's not only mixed but mixed up.

lol, your alright George.

The Church in Greece although significant to the ppl (voters) is mostly ceremonial in nature. Much like the position of the President of Greece.
Case in point, the status of "religion" was removed from our ID cards. Eventhough that law was very unpopular with the voters and the Church it still passed.

[George S.]

Voltron you should stop listening to your greek mayers & other politicians as they have made your country go broke.Show some sense & responsibility for a change.

[SirGeorge8600]

Atheists make me sick to my stomach and they are just as bad as religous wackjobs.

Tisk tisk such absolutist statements filaraki. The people who make you sick are anti-theists and fundamentalists... not the religious or atheist in general. Ie, do most of the Nobel Laureates in science make you sick to your stomach...in fact I guarantee that you have used a dozen of them in your vaccinations and medicines last time you were sick and you can thank them for not having died long ago. Call me on this, but I think the atheists who turn anti-theist and make such a big commotion out of their lack of belief tend to be those who lack in the intelligence department. Seriously, whens the last time you saw an intelligent (high IQ'ed) atheist making a big deal out of their lack of belief? Yes there might be a few like Dawkins...but most don't. People think that getting some rationalism and logicality in your life through atheism sets you in gold for the rest of your IQ when that's not the case.

[George S.]

I see a problem there when we allow the church say the priests for them to do the thinking for us or to represnt us in some way.I think it is a huge let down where we are not communicated that religion needs to tell people how to live & what's beyond & to show us the way.I don't think it's doing any of that as life is a struggle & the priest's think whatever they can get.The priest does not help the ordinary man in any positive way but they are only available if someone asks.That's why a lort of people whil'st they have some religoius beleifs previously have become atheists.They reject everything that religion offers.Today the connect of the church is dissapearing as more & more realise the church is really irrelevent in the scheme of things.They the church have made their bed long time ago,they just have to lie in it.