"This is not Skopje, This is Shkupi!"|

[indigen]

Julie, me referring to you does not have anything to do with insulting you or honoring you. I'm just refering to how the discussion went and to the reason why I was making my points in the first place as a response to your post that Albanian Macedonian citizens should not have the right to engage in politics. That's all.

I am not sure what Julie said but I can see another side (scenario, which has often been applied in other political arenas outside Macedonia) where "Albanian" "citizens" really deserve to be booted right out of Macedonia and never allowed to return. Can you see such a situation that has occurred in Macedonia in the recent past where these Ghegs ("Albanians"), many of which are of post WWII external (to Macedonia) decent, have given cause for such retribution to be appropriate for them?

[Pelister]

In every country in the world there are laws in place that "gently" assimilate foriegners. In Macedonia they are doing the exact opposite - they are fostering Albanian separatists, by basically "handing over" jurisdiction to Macedonian territory.

[Bill77]

In every country in the world there are laws in place that "gently" assimilate foriegners. In Macedonia they are doing the exact opposite - they are fostering Albanian separatists, by basically "handing over" jurisdiction to Macedonian territory.

Its not the government so much its the race they have to deal with. Almost every ethnic race around the world are content with assimilation on foreign land, but no.....not the Ethnic Albanians in the Balkans. (except for these modern Greeks).

[Pelister]

Its not the government so much its the race they have to deal with. Almost every ethnic race around the world are content with assimilation on foreign land, but no.....not the Ethnic Albanians in the Balkans. (except for these modern Greeks).

Responsibility for this lies directly with the government, not the Albanians. Why don't you see Albanians in Greece asking for independence? Why are Albanians in Greece happy to be 'Greeks'? It has to do with the way 'Others' in Greece are assimilated. The Greek goverment imposes its world view, through the education system, through every application process, registration process ...etc, one has to literally become a Greek in more than just name, but you don't hear Albanians complaining over there that they don't have it any good. That is one extreme. At the other extreme, is the Macedonian government which under Gruevski has made two changes to the constitution and changed over 70 other laws - literally giving Albanians the right under Macedonian law to create their own government institutions that are separate from the Macedonian State. Gruevski has handed over legal recognition, and created a State within a State. Forget what the Albanians are like - the power to change them into better citizens or give them a separate State lies solely with the Gruevski government and what he has done. He has given this separatist Albanian movement legal separate status. Macedonians are yet to fully realise the implications of what he is doing - he has "legally" given authority for Albanians to govern themselves, and create parallel institutions to the Macedonian State inside the Macedonian State. What would we normally do to a person who poses such an enormous threat to the security of our State?

[Bill77]

Responsibility for this lies directly with the government, not the Albanians. Why don't you see Albanians in Greece asking for independence? Why are Albanians in Greece happy to be 'Greeks'? It has to do with the way 'Others' in Greece are assimilated. The Greek goverment imposes its world view, through the education system, through every application process, registration process ...etc, one has to literally become a Greek in more than just name, but you don't hear Albanians complaining over there that they don't have it any good. That is one extreme. At the other extreme, is the Macedonian government which under Gruevski has made two changes to the constitution and changed over 70 other laws - literally giving Albanians the right under Macedonian law to create their own government institutions that are separate from the Macedonian State. Gruevski has handed over legal recognition, and created a State within a State. Forget what the Albanians are like - the power to change them into better citizens or give them a separate State lies solely with the Gruevski government and what he has done. He has given this separatist Albanian movement legal separate status. Macedonians are yet to fully realise the implications of what he is doing - he has "legally" given authority for Albanians to govern themselves, and create parallel institutions to the Macedonian State inside the Macedonian State. What would we normally do to a person who poses such an enormous threat to the security of our State?

I wasn't really defending the government, it was more to hilight how bad the Ethnic Albanians are.

Serbia had the same problems and you can't say they did not try to quash any misbehavior.

Regarding Greece, I did mention Greece was an exception and i have my theories why. 1st- they had the help of the west to assimilate them into being phoney Greeks. (where in Macedonia and Serbia its the opposite)

2nd- I might get a few people upset here but i will say it as it is. We are currently facing Albanians that are "Modern day Muslims". Where Greece had to deal with Christians at the time. mislam deka razberate shto sakam da kazam. ta vera e kleta.

[julie]

razbrano Bill

[Risto the Great]

Its not the government so much its the race they have to deal with. Almost every ethnic race around the world are content with assimilation on foreign land, but no.....not the Ethnic Albanians in the Balkans. (except for these modern Greeks).

I think you are handing too much credit to the ethnic Albanians of Macedonia. Presently the Macedonian government has no legal teeth to make a difference on this issue. I don't believe Macedonia can get the "legal teeth" without the approval of the ethnic Albanians. How did Macedonia get to this point from such a small minority? That is what you get when you have a cultural chip on your shoulder that makes you feel inferior to larger nations. Macedonia is a mess and needs to start with a clean slate under the leadership of principled Macedonians who believe in a Macedonian homeland for Macedonians.

[Big Bad Sven]

I am not sure what Julie said but I can see another side (scenario, which has often been applied in other political arenas outside Macedonia) where "Albanian" "citizens" really deserve to be booted right out of Macedonia and never allowed to return. Can you see such a situation that has occurred in Macedonia in the recent past where these Ghegs ("Albanians"), many of which are of post WWII external (to Macedonia) decent, have given cause for such retribution to be appropriate for them?

I agree 100%

All albanian citezens, and serboman and bugaroman ones as well, that promote anti macedonian feelings and thoughts, should be first locked up in jail.

If they still dont learn their lesson and learn to respect the macedonian nation and people, then they should be given a one way ticket into serbia, bulgaria or albania

[Big Bad Sven]

In regards to the shiptars in the balkans... they had it easy in tito's little perverted creation called Yugoslavia, he loved them.

Then in macedonia we had piss weak macedonian politicians running the country with a civilian population who had a "head in the sand" view on things with hope that "big brother" serbia or america would help....

Grease did the right thing, they used the power of the church to assimilate christian albanians into "greeks" and destroyed all mosques, thus making modern grease appear to be "authentically greek" and minimise the chances of its minorities from awakening.

[Bukefal]

I agree 100%

All albanian citezens, and serboman and bugaroman ones as well, that promote anti macedonian feelings and thoughts, should be first locked up in jail.

If they still dont learn their lesson and learn to respect the macedonian nation and people, then they should be given a one way ticket into serbia, bulgaria or albania

Are you serious?

[George S.]

You know this thread has really made me think.Bukefal BBs has valid point if we respect them that hate us & they don't & are antimacedonian they can expect the BOOT.I'm sorry it may look rude but it's the right thing to do,.

Guys what do you think Skopje ,Shkupi get rid of it & call it "ALEXANDRIA" after alexander & let's see if the greeks call us alexandrians.Or still we could call it macedon & the greeks will have to call us that how clever.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, no I dont. But it hasnt anything to do with my point.

Bukefal, it was a simple question and I wasn't trying to insinuate anything with it. But it does relate to your below point:

The only thing i am saying was that albanian macedonians are part of macedonia, they are here, they are citizens of macedonia and thus also have the right to engage in politics.

Do you think the ethnic Albanian minority would be prepared to revise the Framework Agreement and allow for the restoration of Macedonia as the national state of the Macedonian people and its minorities, rather than this Macedono-Albanian state that is being constructed? If not, what advice could you give Macedonians on how they should approach this issue?

[Pelister]

I think you are handing too much credit to the ethnic Albanians of Macedonia. Presently the Macedonian government has no legal teeth to make a difference on this issue. I don't believe Macedonia can get the "legal teeth" without the approval of the ethnic Albanians. How did Macedonia get to this point from such a small minority? That is what you get when you have a cultural chip on your shoulder that makes you feel inferior to larger nations. Macedonia is a mess and needs to start with a clean slate under the leadership of principled Macedonians who believe in a Macedonian homeland for Macedonians.

I agree, but I don't see any kind of traditional nation building projects in place, where we create a strong Macedonia for Macedonians. Why doesn't the Gruevski government build up Macedonian villages, invest in creating larger areas dominated by Macedonians in the more mountainous regions of the deep south-west? The kind of nation building projects that Gruevski has been implementing involve changing the nature of the Macedonian State from a State that exists exclusively for and on behalf of the Macedonians, to a 'civic' state - a completely different beast. What he has in fact done in the name of "greater Albanian rights" is federalize our tiny country into two governing regions, an exclusively Albanian one, and another where the rest of the population are squashed into. Gruevski has partitioned the Macedonian Republic, at every level - basically securing the destruction of what is left of our country and I am sure, our people.