Macedonians Don't Believe in Solidarity

[Currency Trader]

Vanglovski said:

The same old Gligorovist rubbish for the past 20 years! Natural rights, sovereignty, democracy, transparancy and accountability. That is what we are discussing. These concepts are universal, no matter where you live or how much money you have in the bank. There is no excuse for Macedonian politicians failing to meet the highest standards in relation to these matters.

Whoever said that we cannot discuss “natural rights, sovereignty, democracy, transparency or accountability?

Whoever excused or said that Macedonian politicians should disregard any of the above five points?

What I read here on this forum is that all Macedonian politicians are shitty politicians and that Macedonian institutions have ZERO governance or maturity - Despite that the country has improve their state institutions and been praised for their continued development, certain sections of Macedonian diaspora are totally divergent with how the state has improved or tries to improve.

So my natural question becomes, why don't some of you take the ultimate moral gound and replace those shitty politicians in RoM? I mean, you seem to have the wit to become the ultimate politician in Rep of Macedonia. What's stopping you to take the big leap to Macedonia? Let's clean out those shitty politicians.


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[Currency Trader]

Makedoncheto said:

...demonstrate an ignorance beyond comprehension! How do you think that money got there? Do you think we became Australians by forsaking our identity in return for jobs and a secure lifestyle? Do you think it's possible we may actually have it right here in Australia and that it may be a good idea to use the Australian model as a template for Macedonia?

Whoever said or implied that you became Australians by forsaking your identity in returns for jobs and a secure lifestyle?

What I’m saying is that those of you who constantly say that Macedonia only has shitty politicians and ZERO governance/maturity in state institutions, should really take the ultimate moral ground and MOVE to Macedonia to show how politics should be conducted - It’s piece of cake to sit on the internet some 15000 kilometers away to dismiss Macedonia’s development or politicians.


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[Currency Trader]

SoM said:

…when people from Macedonia share our sentiments about the Macedonian Cause, what do people like CT say to them from their comfortable homes in Sweden? Ultimately, there are two types of Macedonians emerging, one type would choose 'promises' of economic benefit over national sovereignty and integrity (like CT, Meto, FyrOM, etc), while the other type is not prepared to compromise on the latter on any level, and wishes to see a strong and united Macedonian republic and people before they go and 'conquer the world'.

I’d say to those people from Macedonia sharing the “Macedonian cause”, good for you.

Although, the Macedonian cause may have different meanings among Macedonians in RoM. Some may envision the day when they can get a job or have a prosperous life.

As for the two types of emerging Macedonians, why not be more specific?

Those who dismiss all Macedonian politicians as “shitty” (including Gruevski) with zero governance and maturity in state institutions, and against those who actually recognize the ongoing positive development in Macedonian state institutions and generally good politicians like Gruevski.

Perhaps there is a third type of emerging Macedonians, a special one. Those who live far away from Europe, so far away, that they are totally disconnected with the developing improvements in Macedonia.

You say economic benefit over national integrity/sovereignty - What do you mean by national integrity/sovereignty?

How will Macedonian republic loose its integrity/sovereignty by joining EU along with MOST Northern, Eastern and central European countries?


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[Currency Trader]

Pelister said

That's Currency Trader's thesis, our politicians are doing a damn find job of it...

I don’t recall saying that all politicians are doing a damn fine job as you imply. But some are.

Nonetheless, how about taking the ultimate moral responsibility and leave your prosperous life in Australia for another life in Macedonia to show the citizens how politics and policy should be done?

It’s easy to sit on the internet some 15000 kilometers away and dismiss all Macedonian politicians as shitty.


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[julie]

CT, the last 5 posts you have repeated yourself, and are simply spamming like an internet troll.
Your views on supporting Gruevski's policies on changing Macedonia's name, the IA and FA are something you revere, you are a typical UMD stooge, spouting the virtues of losing Macedonian sovereignty and annihilation of identity and name for the US led EU, NATO and bullshit greedy power hungry clubs that are steeped in massive debt.
You would like Macedonia to become part of this economic debarcle because you dont care about the sovereigny of our people, and have not had family bleed for that sovereignty.
I am getting tired of your attacks on Australian Macedonians, typical of uncle sammy's little followers, and ask what is it that YOU have done for the Macedonian cause.
You are a disgrace and your trolling is becoming tiresome.
Your answer is, lets call ourselves something else, join the EU, so that they can have another piece of Macedonia
Your blatant attacks on Australian Macedonians for wanting the sovereignty of what is left of divided Macedonia be in the hands of the likes of your kind

You can call yourself FYROM EU ASS BENDER and admin should change your name on your avatar to reflect your sell out little worthless soul. Perhaps you should look at lobbying elsewhere for what you want, because you are CONTRA to the Macedonian cause.
Your kind uphold the divisiveness of our people, while YOU sit behind your computer eschewing your garbage.
MACEDONIA for the MACEDONIANS
EDNO IME IMAME
we have farkin lost our flag, the shiptari are running wild and you attack our concerns
go kiss some EU ass and badmouth your aussie maco brothers and sisters you scumbag

[George S.]

CT we compare what people are saying as to the macedonian cause.If you look at what various parties are doing or what they have done & compare it to the desired macedonian cause.All those politicians have a shortcoming on the macedonian cause.Do you need to be reminded of what they are???Keeping of ones name & identity is for the cause & negotiating ones name just so that they can enter eu or nato isn't.

[Vangelovski]

Whoever said that we cannot discuss “natural rights, sovereignty, democracy, transparency or accountability?

Whoever excused or said that Macedonian politicians should disregard any of the above five points?

YOU did - that has been the theme of your entire time here.

[makedonche]

Makedoncheto said:




Whoever said or implied that you became Australians by forsaking your identity in returns for jobs and a secure lifestyle?

What I’m saying is that those of you who constantly say that Macedonia only has shitty politicians and ZERO governance/maturity in state institutions, should really take the ultimate moral ground and MOVE to Macedonia to show how politics should be conducted - It’s piece of cake to sit on the internet some 15000 kilometers away to dismiss Macedonia’s development or politicians.


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CT
The ultimate moral high ground has nothing to do with moving over there and showing them how to do it - it has to do with showing them how it's done in a manner that has proven sucessfull to a greater extent and for a longer time frame! Several senior high ranking and highly educated Macedonians from Australia went to Macedonia and offered them the governance systems, procedures, protocols and methodologies at a time when Macedonia was headed for independence - do you know how many of those systems and procedures were implemented - NONE! - do you know how many were even considered?- NONE! - do you know what they did with all of the offerings? - NOTHING! What do you think moving over there is going to achieve? I'll tell you - NOTHING! Why?- because nobody is interested in what the diaspora has to say or how they feel or what solutions they have to offer (unless your'e handing out cash). Evidence of this is the failure by successive ROM governments to uphold the basic human rights of all Macedonians - particularly those living in other countries that don't even allow them to call themselves Macedonians, instead they signed away their right to protect their own people by agreeing to the IA and FA - not one politician from ROM in 20 years of so called independence has had the intestinal fortitude to stand up and tell the world we are the only Macedonians, we are divided by other nations, we are the original Macedonians, other countries are stealing our history and keeping us divided! So explain to me your high moral ground theory and how moving over to Macedonia is going to achieve anything! - better still you take the high moral ground and move over here so you can show us how to do it - by your calculations that should be easy to do and should solve everything!

[Currency Trader]

CT
The ultimate moral high ground has nothing to do with moving over there and showing them how to do it - it has to do with showing them how it's done in a manner that has proven sucessfull to a greater extent and for a longer time frame! Several senior high ranking and highly educated Macedonians from Australia went to Macedonia and offered them the governance systems, procedures, protocols and methodologies at a time when Macedonia was headed for independence - do you know how many of those systems and procedures were implemented - NONE! - do you know how many were even considered?- NONE! - do you know what they did with all of the offerings? - NOTHING! What do you think moving over there is going to achieve? I'll tell you - NOTHING! Why?- because nobody is interested in what the diaspora has to say or how they feel or what solutions they have to offer (unless your'e handing out cash). Evidence of this is the failure by successive ROM governments to uphold the basic human rights of all Macedonians - particularly those living in other countries that don't even allow them to call themselves Macedonians, instead they signed away their right to protect their own people by agreeing to the IA and FA - not one politician from ROM in 20 years of so called independence has had the intestinal fortitude to stand up and tell the world we are the only Macedonians, we are divided by other nations, we are the original Macedonians, other countries are stealing our history and keeping us divided! So explain to me your high moral ground theory and how moving over to Macedonia is going to achieve anything! - better still you take the high moral ground and move over here so you can show us how to do it - by your calculations that should be easy to do and should solve everything!

Thanks for a very good post Makedonche. Let me get back to you on this one as work is waiting this morning - There are interesting points you highlight, worth analyzing the causes and effects.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Although, the Macedonian cause may have different meanings among Macedonians in RoM.

How so?

Some may envision the day when they can get a job or have a prosperous life.

All of them do, not just some of them. And everybody here supports prosperity in Macedonia, but not if it comes as the 'prize' for a compromise made on the name of our state, identity, history, culture or language. Do you feel the same?

Those who dismiss all Macedonian politicians as “shitty” (including Gruevski) with zero governance and maturity in state institutions, and against those who actually recognize the ongoing positive development in Macedonian state institutions and generally good politicians like Gruevski.

Your 'good' politician accepted the name of 'Republic of Macedonia - Skopje' as the UN proposal for international use at the 2008 NATO Summit in Bucharest, only to have Greece reject it. Do you find that new 'name' and the fact that Gruevski left the Macedonian people ignorant of his decision as acceptable actions?

Those who live far away from Europe, so far away, that they are totally disconnected with the developing improvements in Macedonia.

You don't live in Macedonia either, that is an outdated and pathetic argument used by people like yourself who think living on the same continent as Macedonia gives you some sort of special 'right' to speak on her behalf. You can save the speech for somebody else who shares your views and comfortably lives in a progressive northern EU country like Sweden. As a Macedonian, I don't want to see Macedonia enter the EU by any name other than its official state name, How about you?

How will Macedonian republic loose its integrity/sovereignty by joining EU along with MOST Northern, Eastern and central European countries?

Here is a concept for you to ponder, retain national integrity (ie; don't change the name) and strive for economic benefits. Is that something you can digest?

[Pelister]

SoM said:



I’d say to those people from Macedonia sharing the “Macedonian cause”, good for you.

Although, the Macedonian cause may have different meanings among Macedonians in RoM. Some may envision the day when they can get a job or have a prosperous life.

As for the two types of emerging Macedonians, why not be more specific?

Those who dismiss all Macedonian politicians as “shitty” (including Gruevski) with zero governance and maturity in state institutions, and against those who actually recognize the ongoing positive development in Macedonian state institutions and generally good politicians like Gruevski.

Perhaps there is a third type of emerging Macedonians, a special one. Those who live far away from Europe, so far away, that they are totally disconnected with the developing improvements in Macedonia.

You say economic benefit over national integrity/sovereignty - What do you mean by national integrity/sovereignty?

How will Macedonian republic loose its integrity/sovereignty by joining EU along with MOST Northern, Eastern and central European countries?

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That won't happen joining the E.U.

There is not one shred of evidence that simply throwing money at a State, is going to increase the standard of living. We all know it all depends on how it is being spent, where and on what. But more importantly, there is nothing the E>U can offer us, that we cannot gain more effectively and more efficiently through direct foriegn investment, i.e., through bilateral economic agreements, cutting trariff's and company taxes, much like Ireland did some years ago.

Gruevski isn't being 'dismissed' by anyone.

That is what you would probably like us to do. Only the blind would be trying to convince us he is 'on the right' path, or people working for the Greeks. Gruevski is using our identity as a bargaining chip, and clearly, the Macedonian people are against it. What could be more reckless? Its a very subversive action by Gruevski, because it undermines our soveriegnty, more than anything else. The real tragedy happens to be that he has the wool pulled over the eyes of the Macedonians, about our OPTIONS at the United Nations. His 'silence' on this issue, says it all. The other real concern are the Macedonian lunatics who see nothing wrong with it (in the tradition of Meto).

[Currency Trader]

CT said:

Whoever said that we cannot discuss “natural rights, sovereignty, democracy, transparency or accountability? Whoever excused or said that Macedonian politicians should disregard any of the above five points?

Vanglovski said

YOU did

Show me with cut’n paste, WHERE I have said that “natural rights, sovereignty, democracy, transparency or accountability” cannot be discussed, or that Macedonian politicians should disregard any of these topics “natural rights, sovereignty, democracy, transparency or accountability?

You forgot to take a stand on this one:

Why don't some of you take the ultimate moral gound and replace those shitty politicians in RoM? I mean, you seem to have the wit to become the ultimate politician in Rep of Macedonia. What's stopping you to take the big leap to Macedonia?






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[Makedonska_Kafana]

CT, what exactly do you do for a living? I, get the sense you're a supporter of the EU because it could lead to personal business gains.