The Framework Agreement

[Risto the Great]

You may recall, recently I was going to take a break from posting for a while (unless necessary) until later in the year when the ICJ results are due but then you and others bagged me and it would not have been good form to leave those posts unanswered

You are 100% correct. It is indeed bad form to leave posts unanswered. So how about answering my question?

On the fyrOM being an anti-Macedonian thread, a couple of Greeks offer you a supportive vote and you call it a resounding success. You are right. It was a compelling victory for you. I apologise for being part of the 86% losing team on that one. Perhaps I should have been on the "winning" side with a couple of Greeks and a confused Macedonian.

By the way, notice how my posts are coherent? It provides a lovely contrast to your ramblings.

[George S.]

So fyrom you don't have to wait for your icj case to finish to answer your posts,similarly if you stay up all nite it means something is worrying you & i don't think it's unanswered posts.The fact is the survey has said you are ANTI Macedonian & you are trying to skirt around it.I think that's what's keeping you awake your conscience about the fact you are ANTI macedonian.(Feelings of guilt.

[fyrOM]

On the fyrOM being an anti-Macedonian thread, a couple of Greeks offer you a supportive vote and you call it a resounding success. You are right. It was a compelling victory for you. I apologise for being part of the 86% losing team on that one. Perhaps I should have been on the "winning" side with a couple of Greeks and a confused Macedonian.

I did say,"unless necessary".

I see you are still into LYING RTG!

Exaggeration is a form of lying.

You are the one who created the thread and hence put it to the public, therefor the onus is on you/your side to prove anything. By putting to the public you/your side (ie the accusers) disqualify yourselves from voting - as to, equally, in a public vote the accused does not vote. I do not believe you guys did not vote.

The poll showed 19 for the question "(ie I am a traitor") and 3 against.
None of your prior posts addressed any of the points raised but instead traded insults, one of which me being a traitor, by all 3 demi-gods and their 2 lieutenants, who should also be counted as "the accusers" and not counted, but lets give them to you. Then we have in reality 16 for, and 3 against the motion. The total sample was 22, which should likewise be reduced to 19.

We now have 16 for, 3 against out of a total of 19 votes.
Therefore each is 84.2% (not your 86%-see above-you countted yourselves) for, and 15.8% against the motion (ie supporting me).

You might say,"Big Deal!, 84,2% or 86% - it's still a solid Win, as you have claimed above.

Is it really??? - for 2 reasons.

First reason...

I haven't counted, but would guess, you have 200 members. Lets say some have come and gone (what damning indictment of the site in itself) so lets be generous and say 50 are active (ouch!).hahahahahahahahaha

You had 19 Voters!, so lets say the others were abstainers.

Lets now say the possible vote was 50 and you have 16 for, and 3 against the motion and 31 abstained.
This means 32% for, 6% against, and 62% abstained.
Does it still sound like a SOLID Win???????

Second reason...

You had 19 Voters and 31 Abstainers out of 50 possible votes.

If you had asked something not really important like,"Is OziMak/fyrOM an idiot for liking hot chillies?", then 19 people bothering to vote would be understandable - poor but understandable, but to a critically important issue of,"Do we have a traitor amongst us?", Only 19 people bothering to vote is absolutely pitiful.

Why would so few people to bother on what should be a major important issue???

Do you think, maybe, they DIDN'T think MUCH of the question to bother voting.

The sample vote is too small.

Still sounding like a SOLID Win????hahahahahahahaha

Get Real!!! Your vote proved NOTHING other than how few people cared about the issue (or oops! how few people still bother with posting on the site which then goes towards integrity/relevance? - ie your style of arguing, perhaps?)

Before you say why have I been bothering posting on the site? - because each time I logon I see a largish number of non-member readers who could do with a bit of perspective on this site.

Hopefully I wont need to post until near year end.

George S. Post077...

So fyrom you don't have to wait for your icj case to finish to answer your posts,similarly if you stay up all nite it means something is worrying you & i don't think it's unanswered posts.The fact is the survey has said you are ANTI Macedonian & you are trying to skirt around it.I think that's what's keeping you awake your conscience about the fact you are ANTI macedonian.(Feelings of guilt.

Clueless, as usual George S. Don't bother asking what I do - I don't want to have to post back. Let's just say,"a little bit of this and a little bit of that."

[Vangelovski]

According to fyrOM, FYROM is not FYROM and 86% is not really 86%.

Further, I would put it to you that 5 is not 5. If you minus 3, you will end up with 2. Take another 7 away, and you end up with -5. Add that to the orginal figure and you have 0!

fyrOM, you still banging on about how telling Macedonians to submit to foreign dictates at the expense of their natural rights and national sovereignty is not treason?

[Risto the Great]

fyrOM, I have a job for you here in my accounting office.
Some of my clients prefer it when 1 + 1 does not equal 2.
I could wheel you out when they definitely don't want 1 + 1 to equal 2.

Why don't you count how many people have responded in threads that you have sprinkled your special brand of apologism on. I would say 100% have voiced their informed opinions about you.

I think the UMD vote managed a vote count of about 27 in total. No big deal, the ones who bothered to respond did. That makes you about 81% as important as UMD ... which ... well ... doesn't say much really.

By the way, you still haven't answered the question. Are you a scaredy cat? Sorry for the baby talk, but I get the impression I am talking to child.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/august01/macedonia_8-31.html

August 31, 2001 5:00pm ET

MACEDONIA BEGINS DEBATE ON REFORMS AMID PROTESTS

Macedonia's government began debate on reforming ethnic Albanian rights, despite protests from hundreds of Macedonians who say their leaders are selling out to NATO pressure.

At issue for Macedonia's parliament is whether to change the country's constitution to give greater rights to ethnic Albanians, who represent 30 percent of the population.
Such a change would come in accordance with a NATO-backed peace deal signed August 13 between Macedonia and ethnic Albanian rebels. The rebels say they will disband if the reforms go through.

The changes include making Albanian the official second language in communities over 20 percent ethnic Albanian, increasing the number of ethnic Albanians in the country's police forces, and giving broader authority to local governments.

Earlier today, as many as 500 Macedonian protesters blocked entrances to the parliament in the capital of Skopje, forcing officials to delay the start of the body's session for six hours.

The protesters were led by Macedonians who have been forced to flee from their homes since the rebel uprising began. Scores of people have been killed and more than 100,000 displaced.

The group argued NATO is forcing Macedonians to give in to the demands of the ethnic Albanian rebels.

"We are not opposed to discussing more rights for [ethnic] Albanians," Straso Angelovski, an organizer of the demonstrations outside parliament, said. "We just don't want to do it at the barrel of a gun."

Once riot police cleared an entrance to the parliament building and the legislature's session was allowed to convene, Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski pressed lawmakers to remain true to the peace accord.

"This agreement is not perfect, but no agreement is. It's the best we have at the moment and it has some very positive aspects," Trajkovski said, warning "the alternative is division and war ... a mass ethnic and civil war."

A two-thirds majority is needed to approve the start of the reforms. Only 80 members of the 120-seat legislature attended today's opening session -- the minimum number needed for approval.

Gjorgji Trendafilov, a spokesman for Macedonia's leading VMRO party, said his group of 47 legislators would vote in favor of beginning reform talks. That group, plus the 24 ethnic Albanians in the parliament, would be just a few people shy to approve the reforms.

Some 4,300 NATO troops have arrived in Macedonia over the past two weeks, more than the 3,500 originally scheduled to arrive. The NATO mission, which includes only weapons collection, is expected to finish on Sept. 26.

Macedonia and it's sellout, scare-mongering traitors. That comment by Trajkovski sounds very similar to the below:

Let me ask you this? What will you choose?

People in Macedonia dying and starving or “Democratic Republic of Macedonia”?

Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer
17 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10643

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is the whole text of this Framework Agreement, you can download it on PDF:

http://faq.macedonia.org/politics/framework_agreement.pdf

And here are some snapshots:

1.3. The multi-ethnic character of Macedonia's society must be preserved and reflected in public life.

6.1. With respect to primary and secondary education, instruction will be provided in the students' native languages, while at the same time uniform standards for academic programs will be applied throughout Macedonia.

6.5. .......Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which will reply in that language in addition to Macedonian.

7.1. With respect to emblems, next to the emblem of the Republic of Macedonia, local authorities will be free to place on front of local public buildings emblems marking the identity of the community in the majority in the municipality, respecting international rules and usages.

Here is an interesting one, a constitutional amendment to the preamble:

The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, taking over responsibility for the present and future of their fatherland, aware and grateful to their predecessors for their sacrifice and dedication in their endeavors and struggle to create an independent and sovereign state of Macedonia, and responsible to future generations to preserve and develop everything that is valuable from the rich cultural inheritance and coexistence within Macedonia, equal in rights and obligations towards the common good -- the Republic of Macedonia, in accordance with the tradition of the Krushevo Republic and the decisions of the Antifascist Peopleís Liberation Assembly of Macedonia, and the Referendum of September 8, 1991, they have decided to establish the Republic of Macedonia as an independent, sovereign state, with the intention of establishing and consolidating rule of law, guaranteeing human rights and civil liberties, providing peace and coexistence, social justice, economic well-being and prosperity in the life of the individual and the community, and in this regard through their representatives in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia, elected in free and democratic elections, they adopt . . . .

Now take a look at the preamble of the Macedonian constitution on the official website of the assembly of Macedonia:

http://www.sobranie.mk/en/default.asp?ItemID=9F7452BF44EE814B8DB897C1858B71FF

Taking as the points of departure the historical, cultural, spiritual and statehood heritage of the Macedonian people and their struggle over centuries for national and social freedom as well as for the creation of their own state, and particularly the traditions of statehood and legality of the Krushevo Republic and the historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia, together with the constitutional and legal continuity of the Macedonian state as a sovereign republic within Federal Yugoslavia and the freely manifested will of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia in the referendum of September 8th, 1991, as well as the historical fact that Macedonia is established as a national state of the Macedonian people, in which full equality as citizens and permanent co-existence with the Macedonian people is provided for Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Romanies and other nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia, and intent on:

- the establishment of the Republic of Macedonia as a sovereign and independent state, as well as a civil and democratic one;
- the establishment and consolidation of the rule of law as a fundamental system of government;
- the guaranteeing of human rights, citizens, freedoms and ethnic equality;
- the provision of peace and a common home for the Macedonian people with the nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia; and on
- the provision of social justice, economic wellbeing and prosperity in the life of the individual and the community,

the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia adopts THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA

And the amendment in effect, although it actually makes reference to specific minority groups now:

AMENDMENT IV

1. The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, the Macedonian people, as well as citizens living within its borders who are part of the Albanian people, the Turkish people, the Vlach people, the Serbian people, the Romany people, the Bosniak people and others taking responsibility for the present and future of their fatherland, aware of and grateful to their predecessors for their sacrifice and dedication in their endeavours and struggle to create an independent and sovereign state of Macedonia, and responsible to future generations to preserve and develop everything that is valuable from the rich cultural inheritance and coexistence within Macedonia, equal in rights and obligations towards the common good - the Republic of Macedonia - in accordance with the tradition of the Krushevo Republic and the decisions of the Antifascist People’s Liberation Assembly of Macedonia, and the Referendum of September 8, 1991, have decided to establish the Republic of Macedonia as an independent, sovereign state, with the intention of establishing and consolidating the rule of law, guaranteeing human rights and civil liberties, providing peace and coexistence, social justice, economic well-being and prosperity in the life of the individual and the community, and, in this regard, through their representatives in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia, elected in free and democratic elections, adopt . . . .

2. Item 1 of this amendment replaces the Preamble of the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.

How many Albanians, Turks, Roma, Bosniaks or Serbs fought for an independent Macedonia? A confusing and disgraceful amendment which is historically inaccurate. What was wrong with the original constitution? Nothing, the below (from the original) sentence does not discriminate against anybody in any way, and is the historical truth:

.............historical fact that Macedonia is established as a national state of the Macedonian people, in which full equality as citizens and permanent co-existence with the Macedonian people is provided for Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Romanies and other nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia

[Pelister]

I think we need to break down the key points of the Framework Agreement, 'and' the Interim Accord - what they actually say and mean in the same way you have done SoM - but in more simply terms for other Macedonians to grasp, and make it a permanent and locked thread.