The Framework Agreement

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8532

    The Framework Agreement

    There have been a number of posters who have pushed various unsubstantiated scenario’s that they imagine would eventuate if Macedonia were to render null and void the Framework Agreement. Their motivations for this are only too obvious and mirror the same unsubstantiated justifications for the signing of this agreement in the first place.

    These posters have done very little research or provided any critical thought as to the apocalyptic scenario’s they promote. These scenario’s include war, economic embargoes and complete international “isolation”. None of them have been able to explain what they mean and why they support such nonsense any further than to merely parrot what our vassal politicians do in the media.

    These “scenario’s” are preposterous, but I will address them further down. First I will try to address the key question in relation to the Framework Agreement and the associated legislative and constitutional amendments.

    Primacy of the individual rather than the collective/ethnic

    The key question is, if the Macedonian Government voided the Framework Agreement they would also need to redraft a host of statutory laws and constitutional provisions. What would they replace them with?

    The answer is quite simple and one that has been implemented in advanced states for up to the past two centuries. That is a political community that is based on the primacy of the INDIVIDUAL rather than these so-called “collective/ethnic” rights (better termed ruling-elite privileges).

    Political communities based on the primacy of the individual (the smallest autonomous unit) are founded in natural law and morally defensible. Such a political communities promote and protect individual freedom, based on individual rights and responsibilities – not vague collective or ethnic notions of “rights”, such as those found in the Framework Agreement, which cannot be morally justified or practically implemented without serious abuse (which has been thoroughly documented in Macedonia).

    The following are some links that provide some basic information on the various models of political communities based on the primacy of the individual across the world. Granted, I personally do not agree with everything on these websites, but they are a must for a basic understanding of the issue.

    Here you can find detailed information on how the Australian Government implements its legislative framework and policies and programmes in relation to this topic from the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission: http://www.hreoc.gov.au/

    Here you can find an example of a state-based anti-discrimination law (see http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n..._act/aa1977204 for the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act 1977).

    Here you can find some information on the policies and programmes that the Australian Government implements to INTEGRATE its citizens and minorities rather than SEGREGATE them (as the FA does): http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia

    United Kingdom:



    It is against the law to discriminate against anyone because of their sex, religion, disability or certain other personal characteristics ('protected characteristics')








    European Union:

    Find out how the EU assists people in need in Europe and the rest of world when natural disasters, wars and famines occur. See latest news and events.


    United States:



    Canada:



    New Zealand:



    Unsubstantiated scaremongering

    Lets now look at the unsubstantiated nonsense that various posters have parroted since the signing of the Framework Agreement in a disgraceful attempt to justify that capitulation and continue its implementation.

    The first claim is that war will break out between Macedonians and Albanians if the Macedonian Government attempts to revoke the Framework Agreement. What the proponents of this claim fail to understand (or do not want to understand) is that war between the Macedonians and Albanians, in my view, in inevitable. Not because of the Framework Agreement, but because of competing national interests and visions for the respective communities. Besides, Albanian political leaders have themselves called for a replacement of the Framework Agreement, seeking further political power which will provide them with the ability to secede from the state.

    There have been comments about “waiting” until Macedonia is “self-sufficient” in energy and weapons. This is another nonsense argument which only seeks to prolong the status quo for as long as possible. Macedonia will never be self-sufficient in either of those and it does not need to be (nor does any other state). It only needs reliable suppliers. Some have suggested that military hardware was scarce during 2001 and that was a reason for Macedonia’s defeat. This too is utter rubbish, as it has been well-documented that weapons were in oversupply and the real problem lied with vassal politicians too afraid to defend the state against terrorists.

    Another typical argument of the vassal lapdogs among us is that Macedonia would face an embargo. They have never extrapolated on whether it will be a weapons embargo or a general economic embargo or something else or who would implement such an embargo or why such an embargo would be effective seeing as no embargo in the history of the world has ever been completely effective (minus the one-sided, one-border embargo that brought our vassal politicians to their feeble knees). I suppose the vagueness allows them to avoid an honest appraisal of their disingenuous claims. Lets assume its a general economic embargo that they are talking about. The question would be, WHO and WHY would anyone impose an embargo on Macedonia for providing fundamental natural rights EQUALLY to all of its citizens? This has never happened, and such a fantastical claim requires some reasoning to demonstrate its possibility. However, such reasoning or experiential evidence does not exist outside of their deluded fantasies. The same goes for claims that Macedonia would be “isolated”. WHO and WHY would break off diplomatic and commercial ties with a state providing international best-practice natural rights EQUALLY for all of its citizens?

    Another suggestion has been the Macedonia would lose EU funding if it dared to implement the very policies that EU states themselves use. WHY? Even if we take this as a given, what these despicable proponents fail to address is the fact that the vast majority of these funds are used to implement the FA, its related legislation and activities to “educate” the Macedonians of the necessity of such a illegitimate agreement. How is it that these funds are “necessary” for Macedonia? Those that are not pilfered by corrupt vassal politicians are in actual fact used to deconstruct the state as a MACEDONIAN state.

    Even this whole notion of “waiting” until Macedonia is “ready” is absolute nonsense. Firstly, the longer Macedonia “waits” the more control Macedonians lose over both political power and state institutions. These are the only effective mechanisms through which they can mount a last-ditch effort to save Macedonia as a Macedonian state. Secondly, the real challenges (replacing the FA) require intellectual capacity and not military hardware.

    Concluding remarks

    The real challenges in voiding the Framework Agreement lie in providing meaningful individual freedom, supported by meaningful individual rights and responsibilities. These can only be legitimate and acceptable to the population if they are based on natural law and not some experimental notion of “collective/ethnic” rights.

    The idiotic “scenario’s” that have been developed by our vassal politicians and parroted by their lapdogs are unsubstantiated and defy both reason and the available evidence. Their only purpose is to spread fear among unsuspecting and uninformed Macedonians.
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #2
    Originally posted by Vangelovski
    WHO and WHY would break off diplomatic and commercial ties with a state providing international best-practice natural rights EQUALLY for all of its citizens?
    Who and why indeed.

    Totally agree with your observations. The consequences some apologists speak of may well be a war with the ethnic Albanians. But the end result will be a Macedonia that represents the homeland of Macedonians.

    I note the EU policy in relation to disadvantaged ethnic minorities:

    A special effort to protect disadvantaged ethnic minorities

    The enlarged EU must define a coherent and effective approach to the social and labour market integration of ethnic minorities. The situation of the Roma is particularly worrying; despite the projects carried out under the PHARE programme, they remain the target of discrimination and exclusion.

    EC legislation on combating discrimination prohibits any direct or indirect discrimination on the grounds of racial or ethnic origin, or religion. In the context of the European Employment Strategy, Member States were encouraged to develop measures to facilitate the labour market integration of minorities under their National Action Plans. The open method of coordination on social integration also targets poverty and exclusion experienced by ethnic minorities, migrants and other disadvantaged groups. EU financial support is available through the ESF.
    The treatment of Roma within EU countries is embarrassing for them. Macedonia is light years ahead of them.

    I note the EU does not talk about "super-advantaged" minorities like the ethnic Albanians of Macedonia. I would assume cutting back their rights to that of all other Macedonians should not be a hindrance in rejecting the Framework Agreement.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #3
      Originally posted by Vangelovski
      The first claim is that war will break out between Macedonians and Albanians if the Macedonian Government attempts to revoke the Framework Agreement. What the proponents of this claim fail to understand (or do not want to understand) is that war between the Macedonians and Albanians, in my view, in inevitable. Not because of the Framework Agreement, but because of competing national interests and visions for the respective communities. Besides, Albanian political leaders have themselves called for a replacement of the Framework Agreement, seeking further political power which will provide them with the ability to secede from the state.
      Although I would hope that Macedonia avoids a war, it is hard to see how given the level of extremism among a seemingly high proportion of ethnic Albanians in the country. They may be in greater numbers when compared to the other minorities, but they are still a minority who already have their nation-state in Albania - where they are a majority. Unless the 'demands' of their extremist elements aren't moderated to resemble normality and conform with logical standards applied to all other minorities, then war probably is inevitable. Macedonians only want to safeguard Macedonia as the nation-state of the Macedonian people, so the 'demands' of the extremists are not reasonable - instead, they are the reason why a war may happen. Again, I hope it doesn't, but time will tell.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        #4
        This agreement must be declared null and void. No sovereign nation deserves such an hampering obstacle as this is for the well being of the nation.
        Get rid of it asap!
        It is time for our government to grow some balls.
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • Phoenix
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 4671

          #5
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Although I would hope that Macedonia avoids a war, it is hard to see how given the level of extremism among a seemingly high proportion of ethnic Albanians in the country. They may be in greater numbers when compared to the other minorities, but they are still a minority who already have their nation-state in Albania - where they are a majority. Unless the 'demands' of their extremist elements aren't moderated to resemble normality and conform with logical standards applied to all other minorities, then war probably is inevitable. Macedonians only want to safeguard Macedonia as the nation-state of the Macedonian people, so the 'demands' of the extremists are not reasonable - instead, they are the reason why a war may happen. Again, I hope it doesn't, but time will tell.
          Is the whole Albanian extremism debate justified or is it a well crafted myth to shore up the FA by instilling enough fear into the Macedonians that they refuse to challenge its implementation.
          The Albanians in Macedonia didn't rise up on their own, they were aided with great effort by their US/NATO partners as well as insurgents from Kosovo including the KPC.

          This plan to destabilize Macedonia served primarily the American agenda of creating states subservient to the USA, the Albanian issue was part of the means to achieve that end.

          I refuse to believe that the Macedonian security forces, ARM, police forces as well as conscription and volunteer structures cannot defend the Macedonian State from internal or external 'Albanian extremism'.

          The only Albanian 'extremists' are those that are in parliament, the myth of extremism exists to keep them in office and to put enough fear into the Macedonians that the status quo isn't challenged...

          Comment

          • Rogi
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2343

            #6
            The Macedonian security forces, police and army were indeed capable enough to combat the 'Albanian extremism' (read: Terrorism). They won all of their battles.

            However, despite Macedonia's Defense structures winning the battles on the ground, it was the Macedonian politicians who lost the war.

            Comment

            • sydney
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 390

              #7
              interesting observations. perhaps a dictatorship is what MKD requires to bring back the notion of a nation-state for macedonians?

              Comment

              • Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 4671

                #8
                Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                The Macedonian security forces, police and army were indeed capable enough to combat the 'Albanian extremism' (read: Terrorism). They won all of their battles.

                However, despite Macedonia's Defense structures winning the battles on the ground, it was the Macedonian politicians who lost the war.
                Macedonian politicians did lose the war, there's no doubt about that but the reason for their capitulation was American pressure to force that capitulation and turn Macedonia into a mere American puppet.

                The Americans achieved their goal by their usual means, the creation of no-fly zones, arms blockades, cutting off credit and threats of war crimes prosecutions against the Macedonians...on the other side of the ledger they trained, armed and turned a blind eye to the insurgents and their actions, letting loose their dogs and tightening the screws against Macedonia until the capitulation was complete. The FA was the by-product and the myth of albanian 'extremism' was the justification.
                Last edited by Phoenix; 03-23-2011, 06:38 AM.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                  The only Albanian 'extremists' are those that are in parliament, the myth of extremism exists to keep them in office and to put enough fear into the Macedonians that the status quo isn't challenged...
                  Phoenix, several (but not all, and I don't want to speculate on a percentage) ethnic Albanians in Macedonia harbour extremist views. I am not sure how you can argue otherwise and limit the extremism to a mere group of politicians. Do you honestly think that if the politicians were out of the way, there would be no extremism left on the ground? I find that hard to believe.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Volk
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 894

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                    I don't think anyone has ever claimed that that this would be easy. In fact, I think most of us have made it quite clear that it will be a difficult struggle (at least in relation to the Framework Agreement. I Interim Accord is in fact an easy win).
                    Tom, exactly what is this difficult struggle you are referring to have do we overcome it?
                    Makedonija vo Srce

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Phoenix, several (but not all, and I don't want to speculate on a percentage) ethnic Albanians in Macedonia harbour extremist views. I am not sure how you can argue otherwise and limit the extremism to a mere group of politicians. Do you honestly think that if the politicians were out of the way, there would be no extremism left on the ground? I find that hard to believe.
                      SoM, what I'm alluding to is the validity of the whole 'Albanian extremist' theory. It's the belief in this so called extremism that somehow scares 65%+ of the Macedonian population from overthrowing or even challenging the FA...many of you talk about wars if the FA is challenged.

                      My question relates to how real this threat is or have we been sold another smelly red herring.

                      Why can't Macedonia role back the FA whilst still respecting shiptar rights and why can't the Macedonian security forces contain and eliminate the extremists amongst the shiptari.

                      A carefully crafted myth about the extremism of the shiptari acts to protect it's (FA) implementation.

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8532

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Volk View Post
                        Tom, exactly what is this difficult struggle you are referring to have do we overcome it?
                        Did you bother reading the first post?
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8532

                          #13
                          SoM,

                          One must be careful not to label a group of people as "extremists/terrorists" (which in my view is reserved for those that are willing to harm innocent civilians) just because their political interests/worldview differes from ours.

                          However, I do believe that war between the Macedonians and Albanians in Macedonia is inevitable, not because Albanians are terrorists or hold to some form of extremist ideology, but because their worldview and national interests are in competition with ours. There are only two ways, in my view, that war may be avoided. The first is what I already mentioned, by creating a political community in which the primacy of individual freedom is protected (through which Albanians may be coopted into accepting their place as equal Macedonian citizens) or drawing up a new border and letting them go. Handing over western Macedonia, in my view, in unacceptable. Hence the only realistic attempt to avoid war would be to replace the FA with a political community based on individual rights and responsibilities. Whether this will achieve the desired effect is debatable, but it is worth trying before stepping off to war.
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                            SoM,

                            One must be careful not to label a group of people as "extremists/terrorists" (which in my view is reserved for those that are willing to harm innocent civilians) just because their political interests/worldview differes from ours.
                            Tom, I think I have been careful enough by being specific about the matter - which is why I refer to 'elements' or a 'segment' of the ethnic Albanian community in Macedonia, and not their whole population collectively. As a rule, I am against generalisations when it relates to a negative aspect of a group of people.
                            However, I do believe that war between the Macedonians and Albanians in Macedonia is inevitable, not because Albanians are terrorists or hold to some form of extremist ideology, but because their worldview and national interests are in competition with ours.
                            Ideological competition takes place in many countries in which there is a healthy relationship between the majority and the minorities. Perhaps during the Ottoman period in the Balkans your example would apply, but Macedonia is already an independent state with a Macedonian majority. Therefore, the issue rests entirely with the unfair and extremist demands of a segment of a certain minority, because I see no reason why Albanian culture cannot survive and prosper in Macedonia, like the Turkish, Roma, Vlach, etc cultures do, so long as they are in a minority context and respect the prevalence of Macedonian culture in a majority context.

                            In that regard, Australia is a good example. The majority culture and language remain prevalent, but minority cultures survive and prosper. People can have signage for stores and businesses in their own language so long as it is accompanied by English. These kind of things are acceptable - but not dual language signs for roads, state structures, etc, because that is not acceptable.

                            Basically, extremist Albanians are asking for too much - something which Albanians in Albania would never afford to their own minorities. This all needs to be factored in, Macedonia shouldn't be a special case.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8532

                              #15
                              SoM,

                              There is no question that Albanian 'culture' could prosper within the Macedonian state. However, 'culture' is only one aspect of the Albanian worldview in Macedonia, it also includes (among other factors) a relatively well defined political idea, which is in direct competition with the Macedonian worldview. For example, Albanians are interested in self-government, not in sharing a state with Macedonians. On the other hand, Macedonians are interested in securing western Macedonia (and the Macedonians living there) under Macedonian control.

                              If the issue was only a 'cultural' one, the solution would be relatively simple. But 'culture' is only one aspect of the problem. Self-government is a key driving force of the Albanian vision and that comes into direct conflict with the Macedonian vision for Macedonia. One way of 'tempering' this issue of self-governance may be individual freedom (which is the real Australian example) applied equally to all. But at the end of the day if Albanians want self-governance over anything else that we could reasonably provide them (which I would limit to individual freedom based on natural law) then we have a problem.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

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