Albanianization in Macedonia

[Big Bad Sven]

I think Macedonia today, pays the price of Tito`s decision to expel around ~170.000 Torbeshi and the Turks in 1950-1960s to Turkey, which changed the demographics of the country in favor of the Albanians.

I posted population statistics in this thread b4;


In the end, Tito expelled the people who would never have nationalistic demands and these expulsions caused Albanians to become biggest minority but Albanians surely have these kind of demands because you have borders with Albania and Kosovo.


I had a conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia last week. She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that her hometown is Debar and she studied pedagogy and education in an university in Istanbul and returned to the Macedonia again to be useful for her own people and community. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. She said that they`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?".

It`s ridicules!!! and she said that the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one. Therefor, Turkish teacher said that they are trying to warn Turkish people to prevent sending their kids in Albanian schools and try to convince people for sending them to Macedonian one instead of Albanian and they are trying to open Turkish language courses in Debar and Bitola by hoping that it would help their desperate situation.


She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted Torbeshi and the Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with ball-point pen afterward.

She said that they are working hard for the next census in Macedonia to prevent such stuff but she said that Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census.

Her last words was that they are trying to keep Turkish spirit alive in Macedonia which is under huge Albanian pressure in every area. She said that Turkish community never felt such a pressure from Macedonians themselves and they are largely neglected in everywhere like it was/is only the Albanians as the minority in Macedonia but not Turks.

Yes you make a very good point Onur, Tito expelled that large figure of torbeshi(macedonians) and turks(who have proven that they are very loyal to macedonians and maceonia).

Yet ironically Tito didnt touch a hair of the shiptars, who believe it or not where still fighting the yugoslavs after WW2 ended. I hear stories that Tito allowed more shiptars to come to macedonia when the plan of albania joining yugoslavia was in its middle stages........

Strange that Tito expelled almost all of the italians and germans (both nazi's) in croatia and slovenia but did fuck all to the albanian nazi's in macedonia.... however the true irony is that many macedonians think of tito as a "great man" even though he was the key to starting the albanianization of macedonia...

Its a real shame as to what is happening to the loyal turks of macedonia, they along with other good muslim people like the roma and bosniaks are being albanicized with the book of islam and the money of Suadi's and Egyptions. Its funny because i see a lot of similiaraties as to what is happening to the turks in terms of their religion and what happend to the macedonians because of their religion.....

The turks are being albanicized by the book of islam thanks to albanian mufti's who only speak in albanian and are nationalistic, just how macedonians a 100 years ago where srbonized/hellenized/bulgarorized thanks to grk/serb/bulgar priests and the good book of christ

Hence why im not so much a fan of religion these days

I think its pathetic that the macedonian government does nothing to help the poor turks, but if it makes you feel any better the macedonian government has never done anything to help poor macedonians who face shiptar terrorism so dont take it personally mate...

[Дени]

Just a note that the map in the schoolbook is not that of Greater Albania but of the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk dialects.

[Vangelovski]

Just a note that the map in the schoolbook is not that of Greater Albania but of the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk dialects.

I noticed that, but there aren't any Ghegs or Tosks in some of the areas it covers.

[Дени]

I noticed that, but there aren't any Ghegs or Tosks in some of the areas it covers.

Perhaps not in any great numbers, but there are certainly Albanian speakers nevertheless.

[Niko777]

Just a note that the map in the schoolbook is not that of Greater Albania but of the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk dialects.

The borders of the dialects was designed to fit those of a greater Albania. For example, according to the map there are many Albanian speakers east of Bitola. This is not true.

[Дени]

The borders of the dialects was designed to fit those of a greater Albania. For example, according to the map there are many Albanian speakers east of Bitola. This is not true.

It's the other way around: Greater Albania was designed to include areas where Albanians live, albeit a little exaggerated.

[Risto the Great]

What do you mean by "a little" Deni?

[Ottoman]

Lol the same thing happens in Turkey too.

[Дени]

What do you mean by "a little" Deni?

Exactly that. Instead of only claiming majority Albanian areas, they also claim areas which may have very few Albanians, or the entire administrative area of which a smaller majority Albanian area is a part. The latter is especially true of Albanian chauvinists in Macedonia who advocate cantonization.

[indigen]

Exactly that. Instead of only claiming majority Albanian areas, they also claim areas which may have very few Albanians, or the entire administrative area of which a smaller majority Albanian area is a part. The latter is especially true of Albanian chauvinists in Macedonia who advocate cantonization.

There is the TRUTH, as befits an MTO poster! But the plan for a mixed canton is obviously strategic forward planning whereby once an area is proclaimed as such the Ghegs and Tosks will have a claim to it and can proceed to expand into those areas over time (next few decades), feeling safe in the knowledge that, based on current statistics, they can win the demographics war.

[protivpropaganda]

Sorry for the delay on my reply but I had just too much going on (work) to do anything else.

I don't think we are too far removed from each other in relation to our views on Macedonia, but lets just wait and see.

This changes almost everything.
Instead of a pissing contest which leads nowhere now we can try to find a common ground.

Taking into account the terminology you use by which you say it differently and yet you mean almost the same thing I'll bet my monthly salary that you have finnished either politicology or some higher education meant for employment in governmental administrative work since you quote Rawls as if it were the Bible (social contract theory is a good thing gone rotten). Also your views on individualism are scewed in ways only institutional education can scew it on college campuses where leftist proffesors thrive.
I'm an advocate against big government.
Do read the articleѕ Слобода to better understand.

http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/protivpropaganda/fajlovi/politickitemilink.htm

You need to read outside of your socialist book collection and understand what FREEDOM, LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, REPUBLICANISM and CITIZENSHIP actually are and how they relate to each other.
Each and every Macedonian, including myself, holds moral responsibility towards reversing the Framework Agreement.

Now, what you advocate for Macedonia is old news since we have already formed a republic under liberal democracy and civil government (citizenship). The freedom part is somewhat vague but all in all on paper it seems like a Rawlian paradise.
Unlike other countries where citizenship is viewed as the norm for a life in a democratic state in Macedonia screwing the system is a national sport practiced almost by everyone. What annoys us most is the fact that the shiptars are masters at screwing the system, abusing it to the utmost of their abilities hence destroying the state. Since under a democratic rule with a civil government they too are citizens of Macedonia and hold all the rights that a Macedonian would hold but not the responsibilities. They abuse the system to enact their interests upon all else while crying loudly that they are being repressed if the law tries to curtail their offenses.
Ofcourse through corruption of mindless idiots who hold nothing sacred and always through threat of destabilising the state they achieve almost all their goals. The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.
The only way to stop the abuse of our system is to have as many strong individuals loving freedom among the Macedonians as humanly possible. It is only through individualism that social contract theory can be possible to exist succesfully. Unfortunately, the number of those that are heavily dependant upon the word of our politicians heavily outways the members of our society that want freedom (with responsibility) and the uncurtailed persuit of their happiness.
Although the number of the latter is on a steady rise, as of yet aren't numerous enough to make a difference. Also the social proof in our society is against excelling in one's own life above the rest.
Have in mind that only strong individuals hold the ability to be defiant. They are the ones who insist on upholding the rule of law by any means neccesary since they can objectively see the benefits of it. People who are like sheep or have slave mentality and serf behaviour aren't defiant.




P.S.
Let's not make the understanding of Macedonian society a pissing contest since I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.

[Frank]

Good analysis protivpropaganda

[Vangelovski]

Taking into account the terminology you use by which you say it differently and yet you mean almost the same thing I'll bet my monthly salary that you have finnished either politicology or some higher education meant for employment in governmental administrative work since you quote Rawls as if it were the Bible (social contract theory is a good thing gone rotten). Also your views on individualism are scewed in ways only institutional education can scew it on college campuses where leftist proffesors thrive.

I never quote Rawls. I think what you call an "individual" and what I call a "citizen" are very similar. When I talk of a citizen I mean a FREE person who has a political relationship with other FREE people. Every person has natural rights AND responsibilities, as citizens of a particular state, they have additional rights and responsibilities. And I agree, the freedom of the individual is paramount.

I'm an advocate against big government.

So am I.

Now, what you advocate for Macedonia is old news since we have already formed a republic under liberal democracy and civil government (citizenship). The freedom part is somewhat vague but all in all on paper it seems like a Rawlian paradise.

Macedonia is neither a republic nor a liberal democracy and yes, the freedom part is vague.

Unlike other countries where citizenship is viewed as the norm for a life in a democratic state in Macedonia screwing the system is a national sport practiced almost by everyone. What annoys us most is the fact that the shiptars are masters at screwing the system, abusing it to the utmost of their abilities hence destroying the state. Since under a democratic rule with a civil government they too are citizens of Macedonia and hold all the rights that a Macedonian would hold but not the responsibilities. They abuse the system to enact their interests upon all else while crying loudly that they are being repressed if the law tries to curtail their offenses.

I think this applies equally to the Macedonians as well as Albanians, but that is a generalisation.

Ofcourse through corruption of mindless idiots who hold nothing sacred and always through threat of destabilising the state they achieve almost all their goals. The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.

This is the scaremongering I was talking about. The Macedonian government, or rather, the Macedonian people are not powerless to improve the situation, rather, they lack the will to do so for reasons you correctly raise below.

The only way to stop the abuse of our system is to have as many strong individuals loving freedom among the Macedonians as humanly possible. It is only through individualism that social contract theory can be possible to exist succesfully. Unfortunately, the number of those that are heavily dependant upon the word of our politicians heavily outways the members of our society that want freedom (with responsibility) and the uncurtailed persuit of their happiness.

If I understand your idea of 'individualism' and 'social contract theory', then partially agreed.

Have in mind that only strong individuals hold the ability to be defiant. They are the ones who insist on upholding the rule of law by any means neccesary since they can objectively see the benefits of it. People who are like sheep or have slave mentality and serf behaviour aren't defiant.

Agreed.

I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.

You make too many assumptions about the people you're debating with.

[Niko777]

VILLAGES TURNING INTO CITIES: The Albanian settlements in Macedonia

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? But has anyone ever seen 5-floor apartment buildings in a village before? While Macedonian villages are on a decline, becoming deserted old age homes for the elderly and ghost towns, Albanian villages in Macedonia are booming with new construction. Albanian men are working abroad, mostly in Germany and Switzerland, and sending money home to their families. Macedonians who work abroad stay abroad and do not return. When leaving Macedonia, they sell their land to the Albanians, who will quickly make use of it and build a mansion.

Have you ever seen a 5 floor apartment building in a village before? How long will it be before these "villages" receive "city status"?

selo Labunista, Struga:

Population in 1905: 600 Macedonian Christians
Population in 2002: 400 Macedonian Muslims, 4,300 Albanian Muslims, 1,000 Turkish Muslims, others, for a total population of 6,000.

Historically a Macedonian village, but in the last decades thousands of Albanians have moved in. Just take a look at the houses, almost all of them in the picture have been built in the last 5 years - they still do not even have a facade!











Selo Bogovinje, Tetovo:

Population in 1929: 1,200 Macedonians
Population in 2002: 6,300 Albanian Muslims! No Macedonians!

What kind of "village" has 6,300 people? If this was in Eastern Macedonia, it would have been granted city status a long time ago.






I displayed two predominant Albanian villages with a population of 6,000+. There are also others, like selo Kamenjane near Tetovo with a population of 5,000+ Albanians. Soon they will reach 10,000 and officially become cities of their own. Now let me ask, how many ethnically Macedonian villages are there with a population of 6,000? or 5,000? or 4,000? None. And if there are any Macedonian villages that come close to a couple of thousand, trends show that they are shrinking in size, not growing. The number of luxury mansions being built by Albanians in western Macedonia is also unbelievable, all paid with euros and built with inspiration and experience from working in Germany and Switzerland.

It hurts me the most when you consider how close the whole village environment/theme is in our Macedonian culture and history, yet at the same time Macedonians today are totally abandoning the village when they should be developing and growing - if the Albanians can do it, why can't the Macedonians? Is it lazyness? Lack of hope? Greed for a better life in some western country?

[Risto the Great]

The only way to stop the abuse of our system is to have as many strong individuals loving freedom among the Macedonians as humanly possible. It is only through individualism that social contract theory can be possible to exist succesfully. Unfortunately, the number of those that are heavily dependant upon the word of our politicians heavily outways the members of our society that want freedom (with responsibility) and the uncurtailed persuit of their happiness.
Although the number of the latter is on a steady rise, as of yet aren't numerous enough to make a difference. Also the social proof in our society is against excelling in one's own life above the rest.
Have in mind that only strong individuals hold the ability to be defiant. They are the ones who insist on upholding the rule of law by any means neccesary since they can objectively see the benefits of it. People who are like sheep or have slave mentality and serf behaviour aren't defiant.

You have defined 2 groups: Strong defiant types AND slave/serf non-defiant types. You have associated the strong/defiant types with those who are committed to upholding the rule of the law. The Ohrid Agreement is the rule of the law. I fail to see the correlation of being strong/defiant whilst being compliant in this regard. Notwithstanding this, I agree there are 2 types and there are far less strong/defiant types than slave/serf types. Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia.

Of interest to me is what motivated you to come on here with guns blazing when many of us have identified similar groups and acknowledge the presence of slave/serf mentalities. We wish to know how we can convert this pre-dominant slave/serf mentality to something of more use to a liberated or free Macedonia. Your thoughts are most welcome.

P.S. Let's not make the understanding of Macedonian society a pissing contest since I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.

I think what you are really saying is "if we are gonna have a pissing contest, I will win". But that is fine, we want to learn from all Macedonians.