Albanianization in Macedonia

[Vangelovski]

How are the statues competing? This is not a zero sum game where a Albanian statue is built, the Macedonian sides loses or vice versa.

Why should Albanians not be represented when taxpayer monies is being used?

They statues compete because Albanian national ideology claims that certain parts of Macedonian territory belongs to the Albanians. So in fact, it is a zero sum game, as that specific territory can only belong to one state. Try and think it through to its logical conclusion.

The Framework Agreement has given Albanians special privelages. For example, Albanians now have a veto on more than 40 laws at the national level even though they only make up 25% of the population. This effectivly means that an Albanian vote is worth more than a Macedonian vote. Do you agree that Albanians deserve such privelages? And if so, why?

[European]

They statues compete because Albanian national ideology claims that certain parts of Macedonian territory belongs to the Albanians. So in fact, it is a zero sum game, as that specific territory can only belong to one state. Try and think it through to its logical conclusion.

I am thinking logically but you are making a faulty assumption that statues lay claims on territories. Going by your logic the Holocaust Memorial in Macedonia is a territorial claim by Isreal. I believe Ataturk's house is used as a museumin Macedonia, would that be considered a legacy of the Ottaman past and a claim by today's Turks to Macedonia?

It appears these Albanian monuments are historical figure with links to Macedonia. Refusing Albanians from participation in the culture sphere will further segregate the people. In addition, allocating taxmonies to only Macedonian project will further segregate the Albanian citizens.

The Framework Agreement has given Albanians special privelages. For example, Albanians now have a veto on more than 40 laws at the national level even though they only make up 25% of the population. This effectivly means that an Albanian vote is worth more than a Macedonian vote. Do you agree that Albanians deserve such privelages? And if so, why?

I am not an expert in this field, but a right of a veto does not necessarily mean an Albanian vote is more than a Macedonian vote. To take a simple example, in the US only 1/4 of the votes of the states is needed to veto an amendment.

[Vangelovski]

I am thinking logically but you are making a faulty assumption that statues lay claims on territories. Going by your logic the Holocaust Memorial in Macedonia is a territorial claim by Isreal. I believe Ataturk's house is used as a museumin Macedonia, would that be considered a legacy of the Ottaman past and a claim by today's Turks to Macedonia?

It appears these Albanian monuments are historical figure with links to Macedonia. Refusing Albanians from participation in the culture sphere will further segregate the people. In addition, allocating taxmonies to only Macedonian project will further segregate the Albanian citizens.

I don't think you are thinking hard enough. Statues of this kind have only one purpose, and that is to develop a national identity. Albanian nationalism claims certain Macedonian territory as its own and therefore is incompatible with the Macedonian state. It has nothing to do with culture.

I am not an expert in this field, but a right of a veto does not necessarily mean an Albanian vote is more than a Macedonian vote.

It means exactly that. The example you provided for the US is not comparable to the situation in Macedonia. The Framework Agreement provides for veto powers purely on the basis of ethnicity. Do you think this is appropriate?

[makedonche]

They are Albanian in ethnicity and Macedonian citizen. Whether they would look better in Albania or Macedonia is a moot point.

Why shouldn't Albanians have monuments built? If taxdollars are being used to build these statues, do you believe taxdollars should only be allocated toward Macedonian monuments alone? If so, why?

European
The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania? - that should enlighten you on the "moot point". Since they are so proud to be Albanian why don't they go and create more employment in Albania and put the statues there - where they would be more appropriate.

[julie]

European
The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania? - that should enlighten you on the "moot point". Since they are so proud to be Albanian why don't they go and create more employment in Albania and put the statues there - where they would be more appropriate.

MacedoniA for the macedoniAns

[Niko777]

Statues of Pjeter Bogdani and Josif Bageri do not belong in Macedonia, they did not contribute to any Macedonian cause. I have mixed feelings for Agoli, he was a doctor and and the first Macedonian health minister, but then again, the only reason he getting a statue is because he is Albanian, not because he was a health minister. It's as if the politicians were looking through a book of famous Albanians and deciding who do we choose? The Albanian people most likely view Agoli as a traitor or something. What I am trying to say is this statue is being put up for the wrong reason, like Vangelovski said "Statues of this kind have only one purpose, It has nothing to do with culture. " And placing him beside Goce Delchev??? What's the message here? That Macedonians value Agoli as much as Delchev? Give me a break.

[European]

I don't think you are thinking hard enough. Statues of this kind have only one purpose, and that is to develop a national identity. Albanian nationalism claims certain Macedonian territory as its own and therefore is incompatible with the Macedonian state. It has nothing to do with culture.

The statue have everything to do with culture. How do you expect the Albanians to feel part of the Macedonian state if they are not represented culturally with heroes of their own? One could argue they should accept the Macedonian identity but it is the Albanian's right to claim to keep their identity and is their right to have a say how tax monies is spent.

Forbidding Albanian elements in Macedonia will leave to further segregation amongst the two sides.

It means exactly that. The example you provided for the US is not comparable to the situation in Macedonia. The Framework Agreement provides for veto powers purely on the basis of ethnicity. Do you think this is appropriate?

Macedonia is a mutli-Ethnic state and over 20% of the population is Albanian. In such case, the veto may be appropriate.

MacedoniA for the macedoniAns

Is this the nationalistic claims Vangelovski is referring to?

European
The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania? - that should enlighten you on the "moot point". Since they are so proud to be Albanian why don't they go and create more employment in Albania and put the statues there - where they would be more appropriate.

Albanians make up a significant amount of Skopje, statues in such place are not inappropriate. In addition, public funds are being used to build such statues.

I believe it would be more inappropriate if Macedonian monuments were built only while using public funds to pay for such projects.

Statues of Pjeter Bogdani and Josif Bageri do not belong in Macedonia, they did not contribute to any Macedonian cause. I have mixed feelings for Agoli, he was a doctor and and the first Macedonian health minister, but then again, the only reason he getting a statue is because he is Albanian, not because he was a health minister. It's as if the politicians were looking through a book of famous Albanians and deciding who do we choose? The Albanian people most likely view Agoli as a traitor or something. What I am trying to say is this statue is being put up for the wrong reason, like Vangelovski said "Statues of this kind have only one purpose, It has nothing to do with culture. " And placing him beside Goce Delchev??? What's the message here? That Macedonians value Agoli as much as Delchev? Give me a break.

I can somewhat agree with you. If you are against the location of the statue (i.e. next to Delcev), then I can see your pov. Maybe the statue should be in the Albanian section of Skopje. Maybe the Macedonian state is trying to bring both sides together with a symbolic action. But this thought process that Albanian statues in Macedonia should not be allowed is another story.....

[makedonche]

European

Quote:
Originally Posted by makedonche
European
The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania? - that should enlighten you on the "moot point". Since they are so proud to be Albanian why don't they go and create more employment in Albania and put the statues there - where they would be more appropriate.

Albanians make up a significant amount of Skopje, statues in such place are not inappropriate. In addition, public funds are being used to build such statues.

I believe it would be more inappropriate if Macedonian monuments were built only while using public funds to pay for such projects.

Macedonian funds are being used to erect Macedonian statues in Macedonia - let me know which part of this you disagree with!
Albanian statues belong in Albania - let me know why they belong in Macedonia, paid for with Macedonian funds?
Answer the questions put to you, here they are again just in case you missed them the first time:-
"The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania?

One more for you to ponder, there are Americans in Iran - why don't you encourage them to ask the Iranian Government to pay for statues of George Bush to be erected in the centre of Tehran?

Finally, your avatar is befitting of your identity - or lack of it - you would rather be European than Macedonian, Serbian, Albanian or whatever else you are!

[Big Bad Sven]

Its sickening seeing the albanization of macedonia with the help from the piss week macedonian government an the clueless macedonian tax payer, but im surprised this has surprised and shocked all of you?

The wrighting on the wall for me was when they put a statue of Skanderbeg in Skopje, which then followed with many more smaller statues of Skanderbeg through out macedonia and even a few pretty statues of albanian nazi's from the Bali Kombatari....

Like i said in one of these other threads, when people go to Skopje they come out thinking macedonia is a albanian country

[Vangelovski]

European, what exactly does a statue have to do with culture - be specific.

What is so special about Albanians that they deserve more weighting applied to their vote than Macedonians? You are begining to sound racist, so be very careful how you respond from here.

[Zarni]

European or please just call yourself Albanian for pets sake

Macedonia first represents the dreams of Macedonians for a Macedonian State in the 1991 Independence declaration the Albanians vetoed support then 10 odd years later chose to exploit the case of Kosovo with War in our Country you are still using the subtitle makers of Kosovo even today forever and a end said to be second class citizens you get the script
Macedonia for the Macedonians our Nation State got it, fair for all else fair for us too. Albanians have a position beyond all internal norms in Macedonia if you don’t respect the majority view leave Macedonia and go to the generous two Albanian State the nest our border
As an example of the righteous demands that must be never be allowed, Macedonian is the unifying language of State not Albanian. Language is the most fundamental element that clues a State what the Albanians are demanding is incompatible with State and not seen any were in the World
What about your responsibilities to the Macedonian Sate and perception that loyalty and love is secondary to ‘’Natural Albania’’ the dream Skopje should be the Capital of a future unified Albanian State all Albanians privately want it so do you

[George S.]

BBS is right you guys are shocked.To save yourselves the embarrasment of a forced name change change the name to alexandria.Skopje or skupi as a name is not that appealing Alexandria is & the greeks will shut up for once.
What the albanians are forgetting & i have mentioned it once before in a so called democracy the majoity rules not a 20% minority.The albanians must stop all that bs about being albanian & INTEGRATE in Macedonia as MACEDONIAN citizensYou albanians are too GREEDY & want a country within a country on the pretext that you are not getting your rights.Don't forget next time you start a civil war it won't be the army doing anything because they will be nobled by the govt.It will be normal citizens taking up arms agains't you because you are only a minority the majority is macedonians.The citzens will wipe you out completely.Pass it on we will not tolerate your bs anymore.Remember the majority rules the minority whilst should enjoy normal macedonian citizens.NO one has denied you to learn albanian.Remember when you tried to issue albanian degrees within macedonia outside universities laughed.You got to issue them through normal macedonian universities.Once again you want a country within a country you will pay eventually.Also i heard i don't know readers know you also wanted to make your own albanian passports a country within a country lucky the rm gov saw the good sense to stop it.What did your former country say to your politicians.Stop complaining & behave you never had it so good.Allready you have pride of place & are enjoying so many rights well ahead of normal macedonians.

[Niko777]

Official Demographics from 2009
Macedonian population: decreased by ~2000 people
Albanian population: increased by ~4400 people

MY non-scientific ESTIMATE for the 2011 census:

Years since last census:9


2011 census estimate:
-2000X9 = -18000 Macedonians = ~1280000 Macedonians (~62%)
4400X9 = +39600 Albanians = ~549000 Albanians (~27%)

[vojnik]

The statue have everything to do with culture. How do you expect the Albanians to feel part of the Macedonian state if they are not represented culturally with heroes of their own? One could argue they should accept the Macedonian identity but it is the Albanian's right to claim to keep their identity and is their right to have a say how tax monies is spent.

Forbidding Albanian elements in Macedonia will leave to further segregation amongst the two sides.



Macedonia is a mutli-Ethnic state and over 20% of the population is Albanian. In such case, the veto may be appropriate.



Is this the nationalistic claims Vangelovski is referring to?



Albanians make up a significant amount of Skopje, statues in such place are not inappropriate. In addition, public funds are being used to build such statues.

I believe it would be more inappropriate if Macedonian monuments were built only while using public funds to pay for such projects.


I can somewhat agree with you. If you are against the location of the statue (i.e. next to Delcev), then I can see your pov. Maybe the statue should be in the Albanian section of Skopje. Maybe the Macedonian state is trying to bring both sides together with a symbolic action. But this thought process that Albanian statues in Macedonia should not be allowed is another story.....

European the fact is that these Albanian's that currently reside in Macedonia were not there before well at least the majority wasn't I am not denying the Albanian populations existance but the majority of it that exists today are escapees from Prishtina Prison who have been charged with serious crimes and refugees from Kosovo. I find it disgusting how these people who escaped from there country then settled in Macedonia were granted Macedonian passports started a war against Macedonians then ask for war pension. What taxes do Albanians pay in Macedonia the drug lords in Struga? The Albanians which run illegal prostitution? Macedonia may be now listed as a multi-ethnic state but I can guarentee you this Albanian population did not exist prior to the Kosovo War. Albanians are nothing but trouble and are a huge threat to the Macedonian State and identity. I live in Australia should I ask for a statue of Goce Delcev to be erected next to Edward Barton? Your comments disgust me the Albanians should be cheering with the privledges they have been granted through the UN in Macedonia yet they ask for more

[Bukefal]

Statues of Pjeter Bogdani and Josif Bageri do not belong in Macedonia, they did not contribute to any Macedonian cause. I have mixed feelings for Agoli, he was a doctor and and the first Macedonian health minister, but then again, the only reason he getting a statue is because he is Albanian, not because he was a health minister. It's as if the politicians were looking through a book of famous Albanians and deciding who do we choose? The Albanian people most likely view Agoli as a traitor or something. What I am trying to say is this statue is being put up for the wrong reason, like Vangelovski said "Statues of this kind have only one purpose, It has nothing to do with culture. " And placing him beside Goce Delchev??? What's the message here? That Macedonians value Agoli as much as Delchev? Give me a break.

Here is some more info on the statues;

Пјетр Богдани, роден во Хас, Албанија (1630 - 1689)
- писател (автор на првото оригинално дело напишано на Албански јазик)
- архиепископ на Римо-католичката епархија во Скопје
- живеел во региони кои денес се наоѓаат во Албанија, Македонија, Хрватска, Италија, Бугарија и Косово
- војувал против Отоманската империја

Јосиф Јован Багери, роден во село Нисторово, Гостиварско (1870-1916)
- католички свештеник и просветител
- уредник на албанско списание кое се издавало во Софија
- живеел во Бугарија, Македонија, Албанија и Косово

Неџат Аголи, роден во Дебар (1914-1949)
- партизан, командант на 4-та Албанска бригада предводена од КПЈ за време на НОБ
- правник
- министер за социјална политика во првата влада на НРМ
- иако нема докази, се претпоставува дека е измачуван и убиен во затворот Идризово од страна на УДБА


I don't have a problem with all 3 of these statues. Out of thousands statues, to see these 3, why not. Albanian Macedonians are part of our country, again, I've said this hundreds of times. These people do have contributed to Macedonia and are part of our history.

Are you guys against Mother Theresa memorials too? I mean, she is Albanian too. Do you hate her too?

I do have a problem with the location of the Agoli statue. It shouldn't be placed next to Delcev. First of all it is not fitting, second, there is no place for it. It gets too crowded.

Noticed how many Macedonians suddenly seem to care less about them , because its about Christian albanians?

Now instead of getting all pissed because of these statues, you should focus on the UCK statues in northern Macedonia, that's to worry about. Not these.


You keep talking about tax payers, but last time i checked, no one paid taxes in mk lol

Ill probably get called out being an Albanian, again.