Albanianization in Macedonia

[Alex_MK]

stoja11,

I don't believe it requires a counter protest of any description.
I think it's great that your shiptar buddies are turning out with Islamic banners, Saudi flags and terrorist and separatist chanting.

I'm amused to see your shiptar buddies doing their best Hamas impersonations with their stone throwing.

I'm happy that the Macedonian justice system has done its work by imprisoning the perpetrators of that hideous crime.

This is a clear example of perceived Macedonian apathy or indifference, it actually works in our favour.
Macedonians need to ignore such blatant provocations.

Continue with your Facebook wars...knock yourself out.
Just don't forget to post us what you had for lunch the other day, in keeping with your inane existence.

Actually, I haven't seen any Saudi flags or any type of Islamist movements. This is purely a protest about Albanism and for Greater Albania. I don't understand why some of you keep on thinking this is an Islamist movement and I think some of you guys hope it's an islamist movement instead so we can try to get sympathy from the West.

[Phoenix]

Actually, I haven't seen any Saudi flags or any type of Islamist movements. This is purely a protest about Albanism and for Greater Albania. I don't understand why some of you keep on thinking this is an Islamist movement and I think some of you guys hope it's an islamist movement instead so we can try to get sympathy from the West.

There was something posted with images of banners written in what I assumed was Arabic, many banners were in the predominantly Islamic colour of green, various media statements alluded to the same.

Somebody is playing the Islamist card, one way or the other...

Anyways, regardless of the shiptar goals, my point was that there was no need for Macedonian counter protests.

The state institutions and justice system need to make sure that everything is conducted within the law and democratic principles.
Easier said than done in Macedonia but it's the only course of action at the moment.

[Alex_MK]

There was something posted with images of banners written in what I assumed was Arabic, many banners were in the predominantly Islamic colour of green, various media statements alluded to the same.

Somebody is playing the Islamist card, one way or the other...

Anyways, regardless of the shiptar goals, my point was that there was no need for Macedonian counter protests.

The state institutions and justice system need to make sure that everything is conducted within the law and democratic principles.
Easier said than done in Macedonia but it's the only course of action at the moment.

Well, if Macedonians don't protest I feel it gives the allusion to the Albanians that no one is going to stop them and that they are free to do what they want. It's kinda funny though. Back during the old Yugo days(i'm talking about 60's and 70's) Albanians were treated fairly poorly but yet they never protested. Today they are treated equally but yet protest daily. Why? Probably because back then the Yugo authorities would have jailed and beat them up at the spot(not the right solution) while today there's no threat.

But I do have to agree that counter protests will add to the fire. If we protest it might be seen as we are attempting to squash their rights which may further escalate the protests into riots then a conflict .

I think these protests will eventually stop. What will happen is that there's going to be a retrial, they'll be acquitted and life will go on. I don't think the Albanian political parties(especially the one by Ahemdi) won't protests as he and Gruevski are basically married..

[Phoenix]

There's no need to get into a tit-for-tat protesting schedule with those morons.

The state has to do its job (easier said than done in Macedonia)...but it must be remembered that protesting isn't some democratic free for all.
Protesting still comes with terms and conditions attached.
It's the sole role of Macedonia's law enforcement and justice systems to ensure all is above board.

I could almost guarantee you that if a similar protest, with it's associated violence was committed in the most democratic country on planet Earth that the response of law enforcement would have been far more brutal than anything the Macedonian authorities showed in their piss weak response.

At the end of the day it's purely a measure of how mature and confident a states institutions are, counter protests would be a nightmare for Macedonia because it's institutions are piss weak and then the inevitable slide into the abyss will begin...is that what you guys would prefer?

[Volokin]

Actually, I haven't seen any Saudi flags or any type of Islamist movements. This is purely a protest about Albanism and for Greater Albania. I don't understand why some of you keep on thinking this is an Islamist movement and I think some of you guys hope it's an islamist movement instead so we can try to get sympathy from the West.

Agreed. The Islamic banners are very few and those bringing them to these protests there for a different reason to the rest.

I'm sure most Albanians would show discontent at them but considering they are doing no harm to them at the moment, there is no rift, but that will come eventually.

[Redsun]

Alex_MK - Actually, I haven't seen any Saudi flags or any type of Islamist movements.

Not recently, and we may not see any for some time since reis-ul-ulema condemned the use of “foreign flags with Arabic texts.”

A - This is purely a protest about Albanism and for Greater Albania.

This one is. The use of any “Saudi flags or Islamic elements” would hinder their protests; the Albanians will not allow this, now that the objective of the protests have changed, from the releasing of 5 Radicals.

A - I think some of you guys hope it's an islamist movement instead so we can try to get sympathy from the West.

That statement is crazy, what sympathy do you expect? What do you mean by the west, America?


Macedonian counter protest, what would that achieve?

[VMRO]

Alex_MK - Actually, I haven't seen any Saudi flags or any type of Islamist movements.

Not recently, and we may not see any for some time since reis-ul-ulema condemned the use of “foreign flags with Arabic texts.”

A - This is purely a protest about Albanism and for Greater Albania.

This one is. The use of any “Saudi flags or Islamic elements” would hinder their protests; the Albanians will not allow this, now that the objective of the protests have changed, from the releasing of 5 Radicals.

A - I think some of you guys hope it's an islamist movement instead so we can try to get sympathy from the West.

That statement is crazy, what sympathy do you expect? What do you mean by the west, America?


Macedonian counter protest, what would that achieve?

There are Islamist elements in the crowd however they're outnumbered by Albanian fanatics.

The west does not give a fuck about Macedonia or the Macedonians, if the Albanians attack Macedonia the west will firstly call them terrorists just like in 2001 and then they will morph them to rebels fighting the big bad oppressors again.

[George S.]

The big bad oppressor made me do it and accuse it of the vilest things under the islamists list for things about the Macedonian oppressor.They are going to say is it wasn't Albanians that killed those 5 people ;it was the Macedonians who staged it to make it look like it was Albanians.In a way they are seeing the Macedonians as the culprits how dare do they accuse the Albanians of orchestrating the murders.SO we have the Albanians playing the victim role just as in 2001.We have a pretext or a blame game to start a war.A pretext for a war is on the cards and its not if but when.The Ana gave an ominous warning that they would be back and they would band together again to fight the so called oppressor and infidel Macedonia.
Given the state they are in they aren't as hell going to retract to their previous stand of aquiescence.They are taught to hate us for it and are prepared to die if necessary for their cause.All they know now is to retaliate in some way.They wouldn't hesitate to use other weapons besides rocks.
The west isn't interested in Macedonia if they were they would be the Albanian predicament.I hazard to guess next fighting will determine a complete breakaway of Macedonia to the rebels.I think Kosovo will attempt to destabilize Macedonia by sending aid to the existing Albanian rebels.As I said before Macedonia if at that has only about 7000 army resrvists they aren't capable of giving full protection of Macedonia.Look at what happened last time no one came to Macedonia's aid.Even though Macedonia even opened up its borders to take about 400000 so called Kosovars.(ethnic Albanians).SO Macedonia seems to be just right for the pickings defenceless virtually there for the taking.

[Soldier of Macedon]

......counter protests would be a nightmare for Macedonia because it's institutions are piss weak and then the inevitable slide into the abyss will begin...is that what you guys would prefer?

Phoenix, what do you consider to be the abyss in this instance, civil war?

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, what do you consider to be the abyss in this instance, civil war?

Yes SoM, it could spiral into civil war.
I reckon that scenario is highly unlikely, but a possibility in a tit-for-tat routine of counter protests, whereby each protest gets larger and more violent.

[Volokin]

Before it all subsides again...

I genuinely think that the Albanians, after a few days, begin to basically struggle to continue justifying their protesting actions and thus calm ensues for the next year. We know as well as they eventually do, that they are protesting over NOTHING.

A war will happen in the next 5-10 years in my opinion, only will happen earlier if something radically changes.

[Phoenix]

Before it all subsides again...

I genuinely think that the Albanians, after a few days, begin to basically struggle to continue justifying their protesting actions and thus calm ensues for the next year. We know as well as they eventually do, that they are protesting over NOTHING.

A war will happen in the next 5-10 years in my opinion, only will happen earlier if something radically changes.

I agree that the shiptari have no genuine reason to justify their protests.
I disagree that there'll be war in the next 5-10 years.

The war of 2001 was the result of a 'perfect storm' of events, initiated by the total collapse of the former Yugoslavia and an ensuing power vacuum in the YU region.
A USA/NATO tunnel vision for destroying the Milosevic regime and a push by the USA to create a series of compliant micro-states from the ashes of the former YU.

For the US, all that has been achieved. The shiptari were a mere pawn in that end game.

The challenge for the shiptari post framework agreement is to keep relevance and ethnic privilege by maintaining the illusion of constituting +25% of Macedonia's population...

At the end of the day, I seriously doubt that the shiptari have the backing to fight another war.

[George S.]

Phoenix what is your vuew of ali ahmeti he started
The 2001 war.Who do you think will give tgevgo
Ahead.?? For the next war.

[Volokin]

I agree that the shiptari have no genuine reason to justify their protests.
I disagree that there'll be war in the next 5-10 years.

The war of 2001 was the result of a 'perfect storm' of events, initiated by the total collapse of the former Yugoslavia and an ensuing power vacuum in the YU region.
A USA/NATO tunnel vision for destroying the Milosevic regime and a push by the USA to create a series of compliant micro-states from the ashes of the former YU.

For the US, all that has been achieved. The shiptari were a mere pawn in that end game.

The challenge for the shiptari post framework agreement is to keep relevance and ethnic privilege by maintaining the illusion of constituting +25% of Macedonia's population...

At the end of the day, I seriously doubt that the shiptari have the backing to fight another war.

I agree totally.

Though it's clear that the Albanians want far more than "rights" in Macedonia. I can't see outright independence or annexing happening in the next decade, but an Albanian entity within Macedonia yes, like Bosnia. This is the best bet for all Greater Albanian regions in my opinion, will happen in Preshevo shortly as well.

Getting a their own state within Macedonia is the best the Albanians can hope for at the moment, it's the most politically correct and the most chance of getting international backing. I am sure that they would not receive any support for anything more radical...or am I putting to much trust into the international community? Anyway, so if such an agreement can be made through the official route of government, then a conflict will be avoided. If such a change cannot be made in government, I can only see one other option...

This will happen in the next 5-10 years, I believe, probably towards the latter. The Albanians are agitated at the moment, and it will come, the partition of Macedonia once again.

[Phoenix]

I agree totally.

Though it's clear that the Albanians want far more than "rights" in Macedonia. I can't see outright independence or annexing happening in the next decade, but an Albanian entity within Macedonia yes, like Bosnia. This is the best bet for all Greater Albanian regions in my opinion, will happen in Preshevo shortly as well.

Getting a their own state within Macedonia is the best the Albanians can hope for at the moment, it's the most politically correct and the most chance of getting international backing. I am sure that they would not receive any support for anything more radical...or am I putting to much trust into the international community? Anyway, so if such an agreement can be made through the official route of government, then a conflict will be avoided. If such a change cannot be made in government, I can only see one other option...

This will happen in the next 5-10 years, I believe, probably towards the latter. The Albanians are agitated at the moment, and it will come, the partition of Macedonia once again.

Perhaps some parallels can be drawn with the Kurds that are jockeying for statehood in Iraq...or maybe the shiptari, thanks to their rise in Kosovo, have gone as far as their international backers will allow, with no more movement towards the same for the shiptari of Macedonia...the Kurdish example shows the complexity of the situation and why such moves are largely dependent on outside factors...

Interesting read:-

http://theconversation.com/as-crisis-grips-iraq-could-a-kurdish-state-be-in-the-offing-28976