Albanianization in Macedonia

[Gocka]

I've given this thread and its content a lot of thought, and it used to aggravate me be I'm over it. Honestly I dont think it matters. Yes it looks bad and is bad and yes it says something about the current state of affairs but you know what if shiptari want to spend all there money building mosques I say good! What value does a mosque or a 100 bring to their people? None, its a waist of space and money, I hope they keep blowing there money and time on stupidity instead of something productive, they cant take over a country with mosques, they are just being gaudy and childish and in the long run it will prove to be just that. It does nothing for their future so why get so worked up about it?

[Vangelovski]

I've given this thread and its content a lot of thought, and it used to aggravate me be I'm over it. Honestly I dont think it matters. Yes it looks bad and is bad and yes it says something about the current state of affairs but you know what if shiptari want to spend all there money building mosques I say good! What value does a mosque or a 100 bring to their people? None, its a waist of space and money, I hope they keep blowing there money and time on stupidity instead of something productive, they cant take over a country with mosques, they are just being gaudy and childish and in the long run it will prove to be just that. It does nothing for their future so why get so worked up about it?

It mobilises their people and gives them a foundation on which to base their worldview. The mosques themselves are not necessarily important, its what they are used for and what is taught in those mosques. They are used to consolidate the Albanian identity, seperate them from Macedonian society and form an 'Albanian' vision for the future of the state. This is what Macedonians don't have, don't understand and seemingly don't want.

The mosque's also act to mark out territory as Albanian and Islamic. There's no missing it. Western Macedonia looks nothing like Central and Eastern Macedonia. Its immediately apparent that two different peoples populate these territories.

[makedonche]

It mobilises their people and gives them a foundation on which to base their worldview. The mosques themselves are not necessarily important, its what they are used for and what is taught in those mosques. They are used to consolidate the Albanian identity, seperate them from Macedonian society and form an 'Albanian' vision for the future of the state. This is what Macedonians don't have, don't understand and seemingly don't want.

The mosque's also act to mark out territory as Albanian and Islamic. There's no missing it. Western Macedonia looks nothing like Central and Eastern Macedonia. Its immediately apparent that two different peoples populate these territories.

Tom
Agreed, they are like dogs marking out their territory, that analogy also befits their social status as well! And the Macedonians? obviously don't mind getting pissed on!

[Gocka]

Sure you can look at it that way and you very well may be correct, but the part where it gets complicated for me is; They are not financing most of these mosques themselves, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are funding the building of the mosques, with the intention I believe to spread Islam in Europe so that they may have more influence on European politics in the future. Now if you believe the Albanians are smart enough to use the Saudis and Qataris to also further their own agendas then yes possibly what you say is valid but coming from someone who has lived most of his life in Western Macedonia I just dont think the shiptari are as well organized and have as clear of an agenda as you believe they do. As a people they are quite backwards, most of them are followers not leaders, what we are seeing unfold is a select few who are in control of a large bunch, and those select few are not as noble intentioned as you might think. They have seen an opportunity to be in power over a large bunch and they have found 2 ways to stay in control, Islam, and hatred of none Muslims. There isnt this giant movement for "freedom and rights", most of them just do as they are told and dont know why. They are being used as a blunt tool by the Saudis to spread Islam, and by the US to keep Russian influence out of the Balkans. This is my opinion, and I am fairly certain that if outside interests were to be no more, that the shiptari would look like a bunch of headless chickens.

I see Europe becoming more and more anti islam. I can see one day in the future this Islamic renaissance that the albanians are playing to come back and bite them in the ass. Right now the last direction anyone in Europe would want to be heading toward is radical islam, and the albanians are flirting with it. They might find themselves with very little outside support one day because of there stupid mosques.

It mobilises their people and gives them a foundation on which to base their worldview. The mosques themselves are not necessarily important, its what they are used for and what is taught in those mosques. They are used to consolidate the Albanian identity, seperate them from Macedonian society and form an 'Albanian' vision for the future of the state. This is what Macedonians don't have, don't understand and seemingly don't want.

The mosque's also act to mark out territory as Albanian and Islamic. There's no missing it. Western Macedonia looks nothing like Central and Eastern Macedonia. Its immediately apparent that two different peoples populate these territories.

[Momce Makedonce]

Sure you can look at it that way and you very well may be correct, but the part where it gets complicated for me is; They are not financing most of these mosques themselves, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are funding the building of the mosques, with the intention I believe to spread Islam in Europe so that they may have more influence on European politics in the future. Now if you believe the Albanians are smart enough to use the Saudis and Qataris to also further their own agendas then yes possibly what you say is valid but coming from someone who has lived most of his life in Western Macedonia I just dont think the shiptari are as well organized and have as clear of an agenda as you believe they do. As a people they are quite backwards, most of them are followers not leaders, what we are seeing unfold is a select few who are in control of a large bunch, and those select few are not as noble intentioned as you might think. They have seen an opportunity to be in power over a large bunch and they have found 2 ways to stay in control, Islam, and hatred of none Muslims. There isnt this giant movement for "freedom and rights", most of them just do as they are told and dont know why. They are being used as a blunt tool by the Saudis to spread Islam, and by the US to keep Russian influence out of the Balkans. This is my opinion, and I am fairly certain that if outside interests were to be no more, that the shiptari would look like a bunch of headless chickens.

I see Europe becoming more and more anti islam. I can see one day in the future this Islamic renaissance that the albanians are playing to come back and bite them in the ass. Right now the last direction anyone in Europe would want to be heading toward is radical islam, and the albanians are flirting with it. They might find themselves with very little outside support one day because of there stupid mosques.

Gocka in regard to Saudi Arabia and Qatar funding for the building of these mosques in Macedonia, is this based on a guess or actual evidence?

[George S.]

what evidence do we need that the mosques are like projects & are funded by Saudi Arabia & countries like turkey.what more evidence do we need.Macedonian existence is also squeezed out as the Albanians are taking over fully & there seems to be very little or no opposition.Our hero's would be turning in their graves to see what is happening to Macedonia at present..No one really cares about Macedonia least of all the rom govt or its citizens.The Albanians are taking ove its simple we have let them.As other eu govts take preemtivie or preventative measures agains't foreigners we have no measures & are losing constantly our soveregnity.no one cares.

[MKPrilep]

more kade ziveeme ovie picki da pravat so sakat?!?!

Spomenikot na Car Dušan padna vo Vardar?! Muhamed Zekiri

Споменикот на Цар Душан падна во Вардар?! Мухамед Зекири - YouTube


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[DedoAleko]

The albanians are organising protests and demolition of the monument for today at noon.

[Vangelovski]

Sure you can look at it that way and you very well may be correct, but the part where it gets complicated for me is; They are not financing most of these mosques themselves, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are funding the building of the mosques, with the intention I believe to spread Islam in Europe so that they may have more influence on European politics in the future. Now if you believe the Albanians are smart enough to use the Saudis and Qataris to also further their own agendas then yes possibly what you say is valid but coming from someone who has lived most of his life in Western Macedonia I just dont think the shiptari are as well organized and have as clear of an agenda as you believe they do. As a people they are quite backwards, most of them are followers not leaders, what we are seeing unfold is a select few who are in control of a large bunch, and those select few are not as noble intentioned as you might think. They have seen an opportunity to be in power over a large bunch and they have found 2 ways to stay in control, Islam, and hatred of none Muslims. There isnt this giant movement for "freedom and rights", most of them just do as they are told and dont know why. They are being used as a blunt tool by the Saudis to spread Islam, and by the US to keep Russian influence out of the Balkans. This is my opinion, and I am fairly certain that if outside interests were to be no more, that the shiptari would look like a bunch of headless chickens.

I see Europe becoming more and more anti islam. I can see one day in the future this Islamic renaissance that the albanians are playing to come back and bite them in the ass. Right now the last direction anyone in Europe would want to be heading toward is radical islam, and the albanians are flirting with it. They might find themselves with very little outside support one day because of there stupid mosques.

Gocka, what I wrote isn't based on gut feelings, opinions or guesses. I've done quite a bit of research in Macedonia. Only a small number of mosques are actually financed from the Middle East and at lot of Saudi funding actually goes to the Torbeshi in places like Labunista and Oktisi, not just the Albanians.

Albanians use their mosques for political mobilisation much like the Macedonians use the church for that purpose here in Australia and the Diaspora more widely. Its nothing new, its business as usual.

[Vangelovski]

Rather than getting angry about the Albanians knocking down a statue of Dushan, we should be asking why the Macedonians haven't done it and why they even erected it in the first place.

[Momce Makedonce]

Excuse my ignorance but who was Car Dushan and what did he do ?

[Gocka]

Gocka, what I wrote isn't based on gut feelings, opinions or guesses. I've done quite a bit of research in Macedonia. Only a small number of mosques are actually financed from the Middle East and at lot of Saudi funding actually goes to the Torbeshi in places like Labunista and Oktisi, not just the Albanians.

Albanians use their mosques for political mobilisation much like the Macedonians use the church for that purpose here in Australia and the Diaspora more widely. Its nothing new, its business as usual.

From the reports and research I have read 1billion dollars have been donated by Saudi Arabia and Qatar and spent in the Balkans on islamization and 600 million on mosque building no one knows how much was spent in Macedonia of that sum, but even if it was only a tiny portion, for the size of our country it would translate to a lot of mosques. Its not a secret both the albanians and Saudis are open about this. Its not a guess or a feeling. The feeling I get was based on the capability and common mentality among albanians which I still contend is not as strong as your research has led you to believe. Take a look at kosovo, they got their country because of a small group of radicals with a lot of outside help and now what? Its a hell hole that most of the albanians that live in Kosovo dont want to be a part of let alone anyone else. Do you think most albanians in kosovo want a drug running state? No, but they are just as big of sheep as we are, its just that their herders are more determined then ours. They are not some mass movement of free will, they are a heard of sheep that get pulled which ever which way the head ovchar tell them to go, same as us.

[George S.]

What can Macedonians do if anything to counteract or to stop thi sort of thing.THey are even building 2nd r third mosque in some places ?

[Vangelovski]

Excuse my ignorance but who was Car Dushan and what did he do ?

He was a Serb king.

[Gocka]

Rather than getting angry about the Albanians knocking down a statue of Dushan, we should be asking why the Macedonians haven't done it and why they even erected it in the first place.

Spot on, this is the real question and real issue. Maybe I should have added this to what I said before. Our inaction is far more worrying to me then the actions of the albanians. You cant legally stop them form building mosques on legally purchased land with their own funds, but the question is where is the outrage when they are built illegally, and when the construction of churches is opposed and even stopped. They can erect as many mosques as they can pay for and can obtain land to build on, but where is the counterbalance, why aren't questions being asked at a minimum? When a mosque is built with out a permit then there should be demand for the rule of law to be applied, when churches are physically stopped from being built, people should be arrested people should be protesting, and physically allowing the building to continue. Why was a mosque built in Shtip where there isn't a single albanian? Why was it not opposed there, and you expect one to be opposed in Struga where they make up half the population and 100% in some villages.

On a side note one thing that has really stuck out at me here in the USA. Americans dont know that albanians are muslim, every American that I have spoken to about albanians has always been surprised when I tell them that the majority of albanians are muslim and not christian. Why have we not tried to use this to our advantage? Muslims aren't very popular these days so why not highlight the Islamization of Macedonia to try and get support for "Christianizaiton". Why not try and paint albanians as muslim fanatics like Chechens are made to seem. It wouldn't be too far from the truth anyway since albanians policy in general has been shaped by extremists and islamists.