Albanianization in Macedonia

[Vangelovski]

That's your perception! Under the Framework Agreement, Albanians earned some more rights (which previously have been denied) in conform with civil equality. Had the Albanians been privileged from that Agreement, they would already have their own parliament, security forces, budget, etc like the Serbs have in B & H. You keep complaining about that Framework, but you seem to forget that due to it was provided Macedonia's sovereignty. I firmly stand to my previous statement that no decision (of national interest) has been blocked by the Albanian veto.



That has nothing to do with a racist ideology nor superiority. The problem stand that a certain Macedonians oppose the very fact that Macedonia should be perceived as a national-state of all ethnicities living there. Even the Constitution of 1971 did not postulate Macedonia as national-state of Macedonia, but of all its constituent ethnicitities (like Albanians, Turks, etc). The constitution of 1991 (which affirmed Macedonia as a national-state of Macedonia by excluding others) was condemned with failure because it went against the nature of Macedonia (being a multi-ethnic country).

Albanians do not exceed their rights provided by the constitution of 2001. Macedonian parliament is still dominated by the Macedonians (of 120 seats, Albanians have 29 that is 34%). Macedonian government is still prevalently Macedonian. The same goes even for army and police forces.

P.S: This is my answer even to Risto...

Perception? Have you even read the Macedonian constitution? Stick to the facts of the matter or don't comment at all - I don't have any patience for racist Albanian nonsense. The Framework Agreement (which was incorporated into the Macedonian constitution) provides the Albanian community with veto powers, effectively making the Albanian vote worth more than a Macedonian vote. That does not equate to civil equality. Civil equality would be where every citizen's vote is worth the same - one citizen, one vote. What we have in Macedonia is effectively one Albanian, four votes and one Macedonian, one vote.

Any further apologetic denials of this apartheid fact and you can leave.

As for Macedonian sovereignty, don't make idiotically retarded statements that it was guaranteed by the Framework Agreement. BS like that is so stupid as to completely defy rational thought and if you continue to spew such brain-numbing fuck-witedness, you will be treated like the useless moron that you are.

[Epirot]

As for Macedonian sovereignty, don't make idiotically retarded statements that it was guaranteed by the Framework Agreement.

I highly doubt that you have read a single paragraph of that framework. As the Constitution of 1991 ruined the multi-ethnic being of Macedonia, the Ohrid agreement postulated civil equality that would balance Macedonian and Albanian tendencies. The sovereignty and territorial integrity of Macedonia got recognized worldwide.

Macedonia's sovereignty and territorial integrity, and the unitary character of the State are inviolable and must be preserved. There are no territorial solutions to ethnic issues.

Consequently, Albanians got in exchange some rights, which have previously been denied to them. Yet the Framework Agreement is criticized constantly by a certain number of Albanians. According to them, those Albanians who signed that agreement were traitors who recognized Macedonia's sovereignty. You are so unaware about the other side of the coin. Judging from the articles of Albanians over internet, I see that most of them are not happy with that agreement. Even Ali Ahmeti is deemed as traitor. The FW would compromise demands of both sides. Had this agreement favored Albanians or made them superior (to use your term), then they would already have their distinct parliament, education, budget and security forces. FW has prevented Macedonia from being federalized as long as it affirm that the unitary character is inviolable.

I don't have any patience for racist Albanian nonsense.

You are more than welcomed to notice in which part I made racist nonsense?

you will be treated like the useless moron that you are.

I see you're so upset by a simple debate. Being unable to keep a normal conversation, you embarked ad hominem accusations. That diminish your moral integrity in eyes of many. Be at least more tolerant as the role of administrator should be!

provides the Albanian community with veto powers, effectively making the Albanian vote worth more than a Macedonian vote.

You and your compatriots have miserably failed to find out any case when Albanians by exercising their veto powers have blocked decisions of 'national' importance...

Have you even read the Macedonian constitution? Stick to the facts of the matter or don't comment at all -

I know that current constitution do not satisfy effectively the interests of disputants (Macedonians and Albanians). What matters the most is that such a constitution has provided a civil equality by determining Macedonia as multi-ethnic. By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic. But the constitution of 1991 tried to surpass that reality by affirming Macedonia as the national-state of Macedonians. Hence now, some Macedonian nationalists upheld slogans like 'Macedonia for the Macedonians', albeit the very fact that Macedonia is multi-ethnic country. Do you realize how unrealistic were their nationalist demands? Take for example the modern history of Macedonian revival. Macedonian patriots who struggled against Ottomans have always called for general mobilization of both Macedonians, Albanians and local Turks because Macedonia at that time was profoundly multi-ethnic. Even the Krushevo short lived Republic recognized Albanians as equal with Macedonians. Would you call them also traitors?

I am fully aware that Constitution of 71' (during Yugoslav period) is far from being perfect, but at least it equates Macedonians with Albanians and Turks. I strongly believe that Macedonia owe its sovereignty due to the Albanians and their will to be fully integrated into Macedonia's institutions in the basis of civil equality. There are some Macedonians (of your type) that do oppose the integration of Albanians. You're trying deceitfully to equate integration with Albanization. You're speaking like Macedonians are the absolute majority on the country - which has nothing to do with the reality. You are not willing to know that more than 30% of the population is not Macedonian. Also you have to take into account the demographic trends which are clearly on the favor of increasing of those ethnic groups.

[George S.]

"I know that current constitution do not satisfy interests of both sides (Macedonian and Albanian). What matters the most is that such a constitution has provided a civil equality by determining Macedonia as multi-ethnic. By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic. But the constitution of 1991 tried to surpass that reality by affirming Macedonia as the national-state of Macedonians. Hence now, some Macedonian nationalists upheld slogans like 'Macedonia for the Macedonians', albeit the very fact that Macedonia is multi-ethnic country. I am fully aware that Constitution of 71' (during Yugo""
Now you are talking rubbish You forget you are just a minority & look at the way you tried to manipulate the census ,you have lost all credibility.The way you describe it it is a rule by minority.When in a democracy it is a rule for the majority.Yes all parties can be represented but not in the way you want it with special priveleges way above ordinary citizens.Your lot has really derailed the concept of majority rules & you have eroded macedolnian soveregnity.You are lying to yourself that you want only civil equality.You are just in n stealth mode as you constantly underminng macedonian soveregnity.It's like a wolf in sheeps clothing,you are nothing but a shiptar racists you want a country within a country.Your rights are pretend rights think about it you enjoy so many rights allready look at the eu Macedonia surpasses all eu requirements on minorities.
You even get special priveleges way above other minorities you complain it's never enough & want more ,you want the budget,you want your own military,passports etc
Think about it you only want your country within a country so that eventually you can take the whole of macedonia.I saw the ethnic cleansing that your lot was doing on the macedonians years ago & are still doing it.So don't give me your shit about having respect you are just lying to yourselves.All is not well in Macedonia as you perceive it you just a shiptar full of shit nothing more & nothing less.

[George S.]

This is a good reason to boot you lot out of government jobs as you don't do them properly & you are discriminatary.
World Macedonian Congress



Military academy enrollment discrimination of Macedonians!



September 9, 2012, Skopje, Macedonia – The Macedonian World Congress (WMC) strongly protests the Minister of Defense, Besimi’s decision to enroll a number of Macedonians and Albanians in the Military Academy which is contrary to the equality of citizens before the Constitution and the law, regardless of ethnic origin, and contrary to equitable representation in the ethnic communities. The WMC would like to point out that discriminatory measures are applied by the Defense Minister: despite their higher ranking in the preliminary list, Macedonians are not found in the final list for admission to the military academy. They are replaced by Albanians with very poor results.



The WMC, therefore, demands that the government take action to nullify the admission results from the final competition and allow registration to take place in accordance with the results of the preliminary list, and not according to the decision of the Minister of Defense.



Military Academy Law does not specify how many candidates from the ethnic Communities are needed to be admitted, however if equitable representation is employed, it should be used in accordance with census results and without discrimination and segregation, and the number of Albanians in Macedonia is certainly not 50% but around 15%.



The WMC would like to advise all candidates dissatisfied with the way the new selection of students - cadets is conducted, to take all legal measures to prove the injustices carried out by the Military Academy’s admissions office and to protest to the Government of the Republic of Macedonia.





СВЕТСКИ МАКЕДОНСКИ КОНГРЕС



УПИСНА СЕГРЕГАЦИЈА ЗА МАКЕДОНЦИТЕ НА ВОЕНАТА АКАДЕМИЈА!



9 септември 2012 година, Скопје, Македонија - Светскиот Македонски Конгрес (СМК) најостро протестира на одлуката на министерот за одбрана Фатмир Бесими, бројот на Македонците и Албанците при уписот на Воената академија да се изедначи, спротивно на еднаквоста на граѓаните пред Уставот и законите независно од етничкото потекло, и спротивно на соодветната и правичната застапеност на етничките заедници. СМК укажува на дискриминаторската мерка на министерот за одбрана: и покрај високото рангирање на прелиминарната листа, Македонците да не се најдат на конечниот список за прием, а за сметка на тоа примени се Албанци со многу слаби резултати.



СМК од Владата бара да ги поништи приемните резултати од конкурсната комисија на Воената академија и да го изврши уписот во согласност со резултатите од прелиминарната листа, а не според одлуката на министерот за одбрана: бројот на запишаните Македонци и Албанци на Воената академија да се изедначи, спротивно на бодовите од средното образование, државната матура и остварените резултати при тестирањето на физичката подготвеност.



Законот за Воената академија не наведува колку кандидати од етничките заедници треба да бидат примени, меѓутоа правичната застапеност упатува на пописните резултати, без дискриминација и сегрегација, а бројот на Албанците во Македонија секако не е 50% туку најмногу до 15%.



СМК ги упатува сите револтирани кандидати, незадоволни од начинот на изборот на новите студенти - питомци, да ги искористат сите правни мерки за да ја докажат неправдата при приемот во Воената акедемија до Владата на Република Македонија.

[Vangelovski]

Epirot,

This will be your last warning. If you continue to deny the basic facts of the Framework Agreement you'll be out of here for sheer stupidity.

Whether the Albanians have actually used the veto (they have) is irrelevant. The FACT is that they have it and this effectively makes one Albanian vote worth more than three Macedonian votes. This is not equality. This is a form of ethnic superiority.

If you are unable to accept the apartheid character of this provision, move on. We are not interested in racist Albanian propaganda here.

[Niko777]

Epirot to Vangelovski:

I highly doubt that you have read a single paragraph of that framework.

Epirot you should be banned for saying that. The man wrote his PhD on the framework agreement, how dare you say that!

[Niko777]

In today's news:

School authorities have destroyed the bust of Jane Sandanski in the yard of a school in Skopje after replacing his name with some Albanian figure.

[makedonche]

Epirot

You and your compatriots have miserably failed to find out any case when Albanians by exercising their veto powers have blocked decisions of 'national' importance...

Have you checked the Macedonian passports recently?
Which other country in the developed world is required to recognise the language of a different ethnicity on it's passport? Tell me this is not a matter of national importance.

[George S.]

Epirots behavior is nothing short of a dumb retard of a shiptar a typical response one of denial & one of attempting to deny the obvious.Trying to hide from the truth.Regarding pasports albanians wanted their own its like a country within a country thank goodness the rom govt knocked that on the head.Can you imagine one set of laws for one lot of people & another set of laws for someone else.ridiculous claims of them being illyrian. when they are nothing of the sort.Look at the way they get away with virtually immmunity to justice.They have been given far too many priveleges etc without consultation with the macedonia people who are the majority.

Niko how dare you say that the albanians destroyed the bust of yane Sandaski that was just a mark of respect for us slavo macedonians can't you. see that?This is typical retard behaviour from those who think we don't understand that they respect us but slowly are pulling the rug from under us.
How about where niko you showed that children are learning at school about a greater albania being taught by albanians at their school.No they are simply respecting us.Also the uck monuments is mean't to provide us with reconciliation so why are we agains't all this because it's mean't to be better for us.Thats the retarded view of albanians who think they know better what's good for us.

[Risto the Great]

Wmc

Military academy enrolment discrimination of Macedonians!

September 9, 2012, Skopje, Macedonia – The Macedonian World Congress (WMC) strongly protests the Minister of Defense, Besimi’s decision to enroll a number of Macedonians and Albanians in the Military Academy which is contrary to the equality of citizens before the Constitution and the law, regardless of ethnic origin, and contrary to equitable representation in the ethnic communities. The WMC would like to point out that discriminatory measures are applied by the Defense Minister: despite their higher ranking in the preliminary list, Macedonians are not found in the final list for admission to the military academy. They are replaced by Albanians with very poor results.

The WMC, therefore, demands that the government take action to nullify the admission results from the final competition and allow registration to take place in accordance with the results of the preliminary list, and not according to the decision of the Minister of Defense.

Military Academy Law does not specify how many candidates from the ethnic Communities are needed to be admitted, however if equitable representation is employed, it should be used in accordance with census results and without discrimination and segregation, and the number of Albanians in Macedonia is certainly not 50% but around 15%.

The WMC would like to advise all candidates dissatisfied with the way the new selection of students - cadets is conducted, to take all legal measures to prove the injustices carried out by the Military Academy’s admissions office and to protest to the Government of the Republic of Macedonia.

Whilst I do not agree with the affirmation of the Ohrid Agreement by WMC. I still think it necessary to highlight the level of complicity the Defence Minister has descended into. He is yet to answer for his actions in relation to honouring the terrorists recently. The DPmNE led coalition government is the only one responsible.

[George S.]

After all is said & done it defies logic that nothing will happen to him he gets to keep his job.The whole thing makes a mockery of our system of fairness & justice.The last thing the politicians want to offend the albanian side so they have perhaps provided a way out for both.No one will do anything about it end of story hoping it will all go away.It will turn out that the albanians are the victims in all this.
Niko, Tom was running rings around the worm epirote & Tom had far more sophistication & real knowledge & evidence to wipe the idiot out completely with one fell swoop.Tom is an authority on the ohrid framework agreement he certainly knows his stuff what he's talking about.Also epirote has insulted Tom as he has a PHD on all this.The Ohrid framework agreement is Tom's specialty.Epirote is the one who hasn't read it properly & you could see he was at complete odds.
Let that be a lesson to other albanian morons who think that they can come on this forum & insult us think again,as Tom will make you eat your words he is the best there is on the subject of ohrid framework agreement Also he is fully versed on all the albanian issues unlike the albanians who are onesided..

[vicsinad]

Epirot,

No one has any problems with civil equality, but that is not what is happening in Macedonia. Under the Framework Agreement, Albanians have been provided with special privileges, not rights. For example, under the Framework Agreement's Badinter principle (which is now a constitutional provision), Albanian parliamentarians are able to veto parliamentary decisions. This effectively provides individual Albanians with a greater vote than any other individual in Macedonia. In fact, if Albanians are 25 per cent of the population, their collective vote is worth more than the other 75 per cent. On an individual level, this would equate to one Albanian vote being worth more than three Macedonian votes.

This is not civil equality. This is a racist ideology of Albanian superiority and a claim to the Macedonian state.

To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights.

This is what the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement actually states:

"For laws that directly affect culture, use of language, education, personal documentation, and use of
symbols, the Assembly makes decisions by a majority vote of the Representatives attending, within which
there must be a majority of the votes of the Representatives attending who claim to belong to the
communities not in the majority in the population of Macedonia."

If this is not in place, then it is possible that the Macedonian majority, through the legislative process, could easily revoke any protection for Albanian cultural/language rights that the state has, especially if hardline-nationalist Macedonians come into office.

The 25% Albanian vote is only worth more than 75% of the vote when it comes to preventing something (related to culture and ethnicity) from becoming law (keep in mind, as an FYI, in the US, one man can veto what 100 have agreed to). However, if the 25% Albanian vote wants to pass a law that relates to ethnicity or culture, they still need at least one-third of that 75% Macedonian majority to get that in the law; or rather, a majority of the entire Assembly. This safeguards the majority from being ruled by the will of the minority.

Does this amount to civic inequality? I do not think so. Could there be a better system or process to safeguard everyone's rights while maintaining a true "majority-rule" democracy? Probably, yes. But much of the time, majority-rule and protection of peoples' rights do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

[George S.]

Vicsinad why can't the albanians behave like other minorities in macedonia.If they abandon their greater albania idea imagine the prosperity etc that awaits them.Why do they have to be antagonists.No one is taking their culture or their ethnicity least of all macedonia .You should try living in other countries where culture & ethnicity are suppressed.Again i reiterate what sali berisha said on a visit to macedonia to your albanian politicians.Behave you never had it so good.You all got it wrong macedonia is the last country in the world to take away your rights to cultrure or ethnicity.Not unless you want a greater albania at the expense of macedonias soveregnity.Think about it you'll see i'm right.

[Risto the Great]

To be accurate, this "veto" basically only relates to legislation that deals with matters of ethnicity and culture, which arguably makes sense in a society that has had ethnic strife AND in a society that is trying to safeguard minority rights.

This is what the text in the Ohrid Framework Agreement actually states:

"For laws that directly affect culture, use of language, education, personal documentation, and use of
symbols, the Assembly makes decisions by a majority vote of the Representatives attending, within which
there must be a majority of the votes of the Representatives attending who claim to belong to the
communities not in the majority in the population of Macedonia."

If this is not in place, then it is possible that the Macedonian majority, through the legislative process, could easily revoke any protection for Albanian cultural/language rights that the state has, especially if hardline-nationalist Macedonians come into office.

The 25% Albanian vote is only worth more than 75% of the vote when it comes to preventing something (related to culture and ethnicity) from becoming law (keep in mind, as an FYI, in the US, one man can veto what 100 have agreed to). However, if the 25% Albanian vote wants to pass a law that relates to ethnicity or culture, they still need at least one-third of that 75% Macedonian majority to get that in the law; or rather, a majority of the entire Assembly. This safeguards the majority from being ruled by the will of the minority.

Does this amount to civic inequality? I do not think so. Could there be a better system or process to safeguard everyone's rights while maintaining a true "majority-rule" democracy? Probably, yes. But much of the time, majority-rule and protection of peoples' rights do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

To be entirely accurate, this ensures Macedonia will never be the homeland for Macedonians. Lending support or justification to anything like this can only be construed as anti-Macedonian.

I could happily ignore Epirot & co. for hours but to have a Macedonian painting this in a comfortable hue is disgusting.

[Vangelovski]

I have even less patience for Macedonians who defend the Framework Agreement.

A few points I want to address in vicsinad's post. Civil inequality, no matter what the intention is, is still inequality. When it is based on ethnic and/or racial background, it only makes it worse.

When you provide the example of that 'one man' who can veto what 100 have agreed to in the US, it is completely irrelevant and as usual, completely ill-informed. Firstly, that 'one man' power is not based on ethnic background. Secondly, that 'one man' is elected by the same people who elected the 100. Thirdly, that 'one man's veto can be overridden by the Congress. That makes it an effective 'check and balance'. This has absolutely no bearing on the Macedonian case, where the ethnically based Albanian veto is final and way out of proportion to their actual numbers.

To be exact, the Banditer Principle in the Framework Agreement applies to constitutional provisions dealing with the Preamble, language, religion, use of minority symbols and national identity, culture, the Public Attorney, the Committee for Inter-Community Relations, the Security Council, the Republican Judicial Council, the Constitutional Court, local self-government and the provisions dealing with constitutional amendments themselves, see Framework Agreement, Section 5.1 and Annex A. In addition, it applies to at least 48 statutory laws.

The veto is a power which can and has been abused to pursue nationalist and party political interests. For example, after the 2006 elections, DPMNE formed a coalition with DPA instead of DUI. Given its numbers in Parliament, DUI was able to block all legislation requiring passage through the Badinter Principle, which it did as a response to not being invited to form a coalition government with DPMNE. In addition to creating obstructions at the central level, it ignored the observance of the Badinter Principle at the local level where it held control of municipal councils and where the Badinter Principle would have advantaged other minorities or even Macedonians. DUI only unblocked this legislative impasse after it had secured an agreement with Gruevski on a number of key issues that formed a part of its own political platform and blackmailed its way into government.

Minorities in Macedonian enjoyed their legitimate rights before the Framework Agreement. Now they have special privileges and the veto power is there to protect these, not minority rights.