Macedonian patriotic art

[Risto the Great]

@Risto The Great

No, I'm suggesting that a specific sun variant, being 8 or 16 rayed yellow sun on a red background only, can be used for our flag.

I also "confiscate" all the versions of Macedonian symbols used by Macedonians as genuine Macedonian and respect them equally.

Do you accept there is only one flag that has been freely chosen by the Macedonian people? What can be the logical conclusion from this?

Personally, the lion was much more of a symbol for me than any other symbol. But I absolutely respect the will of the Macedonians and have embraced the 16 ray sun readily.

With respect Bratot, I do not understand what you are trying to say in relation to confiscating all the versions of Macedonian symbols used by Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

That aside I suggest we should stay on topic. I sense this thread derailing into another old and new flag debate.

With respect EM. The heading of the thread refers to patriotic art. Given the definition of patriot implies some kind of defense, I cannot see how the new flag represents anything other than capitulation .... which is the opposite of defense.

I am looking forward to more patriotic art.

[Bratot]

Do you accept there is only one flag that has been freely chosen by the Macedonian people? What can be the logical conclusion from this?

Personally, the lion was much more of a symbol for me than any other symbol. But I absolutely respect the will of the Macedonians and have embraced the 16 ray sun readily.

With respect Bratot, I do not understand what you are trying to say in relation to confiscating all the versions of Macedonian symbols used by Macedonians.

I don't think there is only one flag that has been freely chosen, I think all of the previous revolutionary flags or older banners are representing genuine part of our historical symbolism, even though many of them represented locally or individually, their content is preserved in the colours, motives, sun, lions, slogans etc.

By confiscating* all of the versions of Macedonian symbols I understand giving them the equal treatment of exclusivity as part of our national treasury.
(*in relation to the seizure and transfer of private property to the state)

ex.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36573302/%D0%98%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%9A%D0%B0-%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8-%D0%83%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%93%D0%B5-%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%99%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%9C

In the way we often use all of the previous banners or symbols preserved in the tradition in order to justify the continuity of the 16 rayed sun as a Macedonian geniune symbol.

I don't think I'm anything less or worse ideologically Macedonian by respecting the current state flag.

[Risto the Great]

This is not about who is the best Macedonian.
You are correct, there are a number of Macedonian flags that have been freely chosen. In fact, the current flag represents the first time a flag has not been freely chosen by Macedonians. This makes it very unique in Macedonia's history .... for all the wrong reasons.

[Bratot]

This is not about who is the best Macedonian.
You are correct, there are a number of Macedonian flags that have been freely chosen. In fact, the current flag represents the first time a flag has not been freely chosen by Macedonians. This makes it very unique in Macedonia's history .... for all the wrong reasons.

Actually, cavilling those Macedonians who don't share the same view about the current flag with yours leaves the impression they are worse or ideologically half-breed compared to the vocal patriots.

The current flag represents the continuity of the symbol and colours.

[indigen]

The BIG MACEDONIAN SUN (Macedonian Rally held on 9 May 1993
Martin Place, Sydney, Australia)

http://www.antickimakedonci.com.mk/images/sliki_images/10.jpg

http://www.antickimakedonci.com.mk/

Macedonian protest (June) 1994 held in Sydney, Australia.



Sydney - Carnevale 1996


Sydney - Carnevale 1996


Sydney - Carnevale 1996

[Soldier of Macedon]

The current flag represents the continuity of the symbol and colours.

To a degree, so would Risto's happy face sun (minus the happy face) if it had the right colours. You can't compare a rock carving from 5,000 years ago to a symbol that was extensively used by the Macedonians in certain periods during history. You can't compare a flag that is freely chosen to one chosen under duress. It is what it is Bratot, but don't waste your time justifying it and expecting others to conform. You are too defensive of this, take a step back and look at it objectively for a moment. If stronger-minded Macedonians like you and I begin to accept it, then those after us will consider it the norm. It should never be considered as such, and one of the aims of the Macedonian Cause should be the reinstatement of the old flag for all purposes, official or otherwise.

[Bratot]

PROTESTS AT PELLA SQUARE 2008

http://www.superclips.tv/watchthis/YOJiJDgsocA/270208-plostad-pela-miting-protiv.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

All the photo's are from the republic, where they were forced to change the flag. Are you saying that, because it has been accepted by the soldout politicians in the republic and then integrated in our society there, that we should do the same elsewhere?

[Daniel the Great]

Bratot, I accept the new flag as the symbol or the Macedonian state today, but never as the general symbol of the Macedonian people. And, if I was in a position to change it back to the original, I wouldn't think twice about it. As much as it has come to represent some things that aren't 'negative', it will always serve as a reminder of our politicians' capitulation in the face of Greek pressure.

Thats very true the 16 rayed sun flag represents the Macedonian people in Macedonia and all around the world, but the new 8 rayed sun flag represents the Macedonian country/state.

Would it ever be possible in the future to re adopt, if you will, the old and true Macedonian flag? no doubt the Greeks will jump on us like wild animals but we need to show some strength and say this is our flag, the Macedonian flag!

[Bratot]

To a degree, so would Risto's happy face sun (minus the happy face) if it had the right colours. You can't compare a rock carving from 5,000 years ago to a symbol that was extensively used by the Macedonians in certain periods during history. You can't compare a flag that is freely chosen to one chosen under duress. It is what it is Bratot, but don't waste your time justifying it and expecting others to conform. You are too defensive of this, take a step back and look at it objectively for a moment. If stronger-minded Macedonians like you and I begin to accept it, then those after us will consider it the norm. It should never be considered as such, and one of the aims of the Macedonian Cause should be the reinstatement of the old flag for all purposes, official or otherwise.

You can't compare the national pride that has been builded under the current flag for these 15 years with that of 3 years old flag either, you can not justify it's usage before 1990 either, if you want me to be objective.

Who is here the arbitary of what I should or not respect?

I only said don't humiliate the current flag, don't call it "ventilator" and making the Greek get wet on it, don't attack other Macedonians like they are ideologically corrupted.
No one is telling you to prefer the current over the old flag, but only asking to respect my feelings for the flag I chose to represent me as well.

[Big Bad Sven]

What an interesting predicament the poor Macedonians face in regards to the flag(s)…..

Its interesting because it is the flag of the republic of Macedonia, and we all love it and many Macedonians have thought and died for it, and played sports under it – but the flip side of the coin is that this flag symbolizes the SHAME and WEAKNESS of the poor Macedonians past. The weakness that our politicians showed to bow down to racist grik pressure and the shame that our people didn’t do anything to stop this unfortunate sacrifice, or do anything to punish the stupid people who sold our flag…. I personally think that the new flag symbolizes a new era in macedonian history, a era were we are slaves to foreign powers and are no longer truly free to make decisions about our OWN country.

I personally have mixed emotions when I look at the current flag to be honest. I mean I respect it and in no way look down on it or de-value it, but in the back of my mind I imagine a bunch of neo-griks laughing at our expense and thinking they have the upper hand and can bully us even more.

The new flag and its history is also more “proof” for ignorant European politicians to believe that if we have no troubles changing our flag, then we shouldn’t have any trouble changing our name… another reason why I “hate” the new flag…..

But lets be honest here, the majority of Macedonians prefer and even use the “old” flag to this day. Wether it is the Macedonians in ROM, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria or in the Diaspora. For an “old” and “unofficial” flag, it still lives on and is greatly used. It shows that Macedonians still respect the “old” flag and perhaps still consider it as the “true” flag of the Macedonians. I think that’s a very strong sign of what people think of both flags…..

I would imagine if the amazing happened and that Macedonia was allowed to FREELY choose the flag of its country, nearly every Macedonian would go for the original.

It doesn’t really matter anyway because the way things are going we wont be in the position to change our countries flag for a long, long time unfortunately…

[Bratot]

All the photo's are from the republic, where they were forced to change the flag. Are you saying that, because it has been accepted by the soldout politicians in the republic and then integrated in our society there, that we should do the same elsewhere?

I didn't got the impression from the photos of Macedonians being forced to wave the current state flag.

The flag become just another symbol of Macedonian identity, as you were able to witness from the photos, strongly attached to people's national feeling of being and staying Macedonians only.
You don't have to accept the current flag, but you cannot reject the Macedonians who did accepted if they don't share your view about it. That doesn't mean they prefer this one over the other one, it simply means they will equally use them and equally identify themselves with both.
And I'm convinced the majority of Macedonians will agree to bring back the 16 rayed sun but will continue to use the current as well.

[Bratot]

But lets be honest here, the majority of Macedonians prefer and even use the “old” flag to this day. Wether it is the Macedonians in ROM, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria or in the Diaspora. For an “old” and “unofficial” flag, it still lives on and is greatly used. It shows that Macedonians still respect the “old” flag and perhaps still consider it as the “true” flag of the Macedonians. I think that’s a very strong sign of what people think of both flags…..

The old flag is our ethnic flag and is accepted as that by everyone of us, the current state flag is simply a state flag and we do respect it for it's function.

[Daniel the Great]

DtG, I am positive many brave Macedonian soldiers fought under the Yugoslavian flag as well. Neither the new flag nor the Yugoslavian flag represented the choice of the Macedonian people.

Ye that's fair enough. Our politicians needed to be more strong when it came down to Greece forcing us to change our flag.