Macedonian Nationalism

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Is this your idea of proof that Indigen has alleged continued 'gene purity' between the ancient Macedonians of Alexander the Great's days and today's indigenous Macedonians?

What does the word 'purity' mean to you?


It appears that your conception of ethnicity and 'genetic purity' may be based on long outdated theories of race and human civilization, which dominated even Western academia until at least the mid 20th century, but have since been widely discredited by progressive scholars and thinkers. Unfortunately, it appears that Balkan academia has been quite slow to catch up, which is why Balkan societies either fall for self-destructing experiments in 'multiethnic cohabitation' that necessarily involve ethnic discrimination and segregation, like the Ohrid Framework Agreement and the current arrangements in Bosnia, or they go to the alternative racist extreme of forced ethnic assimilation and/or 'cleansing', as applied in countries like Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and even Croatia.

The drive for 'genetic purity' expresses itself when people en mass overtly and forcefully identify with their race, ethnicity, or in some cases with their nationality.


There were several historical attemps for achieving "genetic purity" based on the claimes of indigenous existance, therefore it is not my conception being in line with the claimes of the past.

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&tbs=bks%3A1&q=nationalistic+genetic+purity&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

I clearly stated that genetic transmission is not a condition for being ethnically conscious.

Thus claiming genetical continuity is irrelevant factor for determination of Macedonian historical existance.

[aleksandrov]

The drive for 'genetic purity' expresses itself when people en mass overtly and forcefully identify with their race, ethnicity, or in some cases with their nationality.


There were several historical attemps for achieving "genetic purity" based on the claimes of indigenous existance, therefore it is not my conception being in line with the claimes of the past.

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&tbs=bks%3A1&q=nationalistic+genetic+purity&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

I clearly stated that genetic transmission is not a condition for being ethnically conscious.

Thus claiming genetical continuity is irrelevant factor for determination of Macedonian historical existance.

Are you still trying to justify TM's unsubstantiated attempt to attribute claims of 'genetic PURITY' to Indigen? Or have you given that up without admitting you were wrong and are now moving onto something more general?

You seem to have again missed the important distinction between the concepts of genetic PURITY and genetic continuity. Perhaps you will grasp it better if you try answering the questions that you edited out when you quoted me?

[Bratot]

Are you still trying to justify TM's unsubstantiated attempt to attribute claims of 'genetic PURITY' to Indigen? Or have you given that up without admitting you were wrong and are now moving onto something more general?

You seem to have again missed the important distinction between the concepts of genetic PURITY and genetic continuity. Perhaps you will grasp it better if you try answering the questions that you edited out when you quoted me?

Claiming genetic continuity for the purpose of being DIRECT descendant gives the deffinition of the genetical purity(trueness to type).

First of all, to claim continuity of genes in ethnic sense is beyond belief.

For you to claim such continuity you HAVE to know for which portion of isolated genetical matherial you refer to - your ethnic group.

That's enough absurdal so far, but lets continue with your dogmatism.

Even if you supposedly genetically define your ethnic group, what will you do with the rest of the genetical matherial which doesn't fit your ethnics?
Don't tell me now how you are able to limit the foreign contribution to your genes.

And what portion would satisfy your claim, because you might as well have 2/3 foreign genetical matherial which theoretically makes you also a rightfull subject of 2 other ethnic groups?

So, explain to us, how do you chose which genetical continuity you will claim in such case?

You might be 'genetically' good Albanian or Hungarian.

I don't really see any logic in claiming genetical continuity of a specific ethnic group when at the end it's your individual consciousness to define your identity.

That's all about your pseudo-scientific ideas of biological-ethnic inheritance.

[TrueMacedonian]

Vangelovski said;

I think before you continue, at a minimum, you should define how YOU understand the following concepts AND how they relate to each other according to YOU:

Nation
Nationalism
Ethnicity
Culture
Identity

Sorry for the long delay Vangelovski. I'm preparing for a trip tomorrow but I have a little time to give you my definitions in my own words.

Nation - A large social group working towards or held together by common cause, beliefs, ideas, interests, and goals which may be influenced by cultural, political, linguistic, foreign, economic, religious, geographical, and historical objectives in order to reflect a collective consciousness.

Nationalism - An expressed devotion, consideration of, or attitude towards the nation one is associated with which has many forms and many views among those associated.

Ethnicity - Distinguishable qualities of commonality of a people who share the same culture, language, and ancestry.

Culture - Fluid elemental traits and customs practiced and exhibited by a group of people displaying distinct qualities and traditions.

Identity - Adherence to a specific belief, society, community, or nation influenced by either cultural, political, linguistic, foreign, economic, religious, geographical, or historical objectives.


Each concept is interdependent one influencing the other.

If you want me to get more specific as to how each concept relates to each other you'll have to wait until Monday.

[Vangelovski]

Sorry for the long delay Vangelovski. I'm preparing for a trip tomorrow but I have a little time to give you my definitions in my own words.

Nation - A large social group working towards or held together by common cause, beliefs, ideas, interests, and goals which may be influenced by cultural, political, linguistic, foreign, economic, religious, geographical, and historical objectives in order to reflect a collective consciousness.

Nationalism - An expressed devotion, consideration of, or attitude towards the nation one is associated with which has many forms and many views among those associated.

Ethnicity - Distinguishable qualities of commonality of a people who share the same culture, language, and ancestry.

Culture - Fluid elemental traits and customs practiced and exhibited by a group of people displaying distinct qualities and traditions.

Identity - Adherence to a specific belief, society, community, or nation influenced by either cultural, political, linguistic, foreign, economic, religious, geographical, or historical objectives.


Each concept is interdependent one influencing the other.

If you want me to get more specific as to how each concept relates to each other you'll have to wait until Monday.

Ok, now can you tell us what exactly you are tying to determine with this thread?

[aleksandrov]

...For you to claim such continuity you HAVE to know for which portion of isolated genetical matherial you refer to - your ethnic group.

Where exactly did I claim 'genetic' continuity? By now, you should be admitting that you baselessly accused Indigen of making a claim to 'genetic purity'. Instead, you choose to cover up one lie with another, by accusing me of asserting 'genetic continuity', when that is in fact the assertion made by Indigen, which you misrepresented as a claim to 'genetic purity'. The only thing I've had to say about that relates to your apparent inability to prove that Indigen made a claim to 'genetic purity' and to distinguish between the different meanings of 'genetic continuity' and 'genetic purity'.

If you want to know more about the reasoning behind Indigen's claim to 'genetic continuity', you can ask him, but start by apologizing for persistently distorting what he has actually said.

Do I need to start reposting what has already been posted in this thread, starting with the post of yours from which this particular argument about 'genetic purity' stems, or would you be kind enough to revisit the previous posts on your own?

That's enough absurdal so far, but lets continue with your dogmatism.

MY dogmatism? I suspect that your understanding of the concept of 'dogmatism' and your ability to identify and assess its manifestations are as good as your comprehension of the word 'purity' and the concept of 'genetic purity', which TM and yourself have baselessly introduced to this discussion.

Even if you supposedly genetically define your ethnic group, what will you do with the rest of the genetical matherial which doesn't fit your ethnics?

What?! What??!! What???!!! What supposed 'genetic material' could supposedly not fit my ethnicity? What is the 'genetic material' of my ethnicity supposed to be? Are you actually reading my posts before replying?

Don't tell me now how you are able to limit the foreign contribution to your genes.

What? Where did I suggest that I am able to limit any 'foreign' contributions to my 'genes'? And how would you define what is foreign or native to my 'genes'?

And what portion would satisfy your claim, because you might as well have 2/3 foreign genetical matherial which theoretically makes you also a rightfull subject of 2 other ethnic groups?

"Rightful subject"??? Where are you getting these concepts from?

Since you apparently well educated on the topic of genetics and genetic 'subjects', and I definitely am not and have no desire to be, can you please look up how many dog breeds have been used in the creation of the Rottweiler breed, how many different 'genetic materials' have been blended in the process, and how many different breed names does a purebred Rottweiler have? Mind you, the process of creating dog breeds is much simpler than the evolution of ethnicities, so I am by no means trying to equate the two, but if you can't apply your bizarre concept of 'foreign' and, presumably, 'native' genetic material to dog breeds, you have a long way to go before it will make sense in a discussion about indigenous ethnicity.

You might be 'genetically' good Albanian or Hungarian.

"Genetically good"? Is that another bizarre concept that you just invented with the aim of attributing it to somebody who does not accept your confused idea of what ethnicity or indigenous ethnicity means?

[Bratot]

Where exactly did I claim 'genetic' continuity? By now, you should be admitting that you baselessly accused Indigen of making a claim to 'genetic purity'. Instead, you choose to cover up one lie with another, by accusing me of asserting 'genetic continuity', when that is in fact the assertion made by Indigen, which you misrepresented as a claim to 'genetic purity'. The only thing I've had to say about that relates to your apparent inability to prove that Indigen made a claim to 'genetic purity' and to distinguish between the different meanings of 'genetic continuity' and 'genetic purity'.

"For you to claim" doesn't mean you do, it was said as a condition and it can be general to 'anyone' to claim the same thing.

I precizely explained the 'purity' claim and where it stands in the claims of genetical continuity but maybe your lack of logic and vanity doesn't go together.

If you want to know more about the reasoning behind Indigen's claim to 'genetic continuity', you can ask him, but start by apologizing for persistently distorting what he has actually said.

I wonder why I had the feeling that I was talking to his advocate.

Do I need to start reposting what has already been posted in this thread, starting with the post of yours from which this particular argument about 'genetic purity' stems, or would you be kind enough to revisit the previous posts on your own?

Continue with your advocacy and do what pleases you, you might be still incapable to understand anything from what I tried to explain in very simple way but you also might be pigheaded on this subject because it suits to you this way.

MY dogmatism? I suspect that your understanding of the concept of 'dogmatism' and your ability to identify and assess its manifestations are as good as your comprehension of the word 'purity' and the concept of 'genetic purity', which TM and yourself have baselessly introduced to this discussion.

'Your' - plural, also directed to you since you started your ongoin advocacy of somebody else's statement.

dogmatism
1. a statement of a point of view as if it were an established fact.
2. the use of a system of ideas based upon insufficiently examined premises. — dogmatist, n. — dogmatic, adj

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogmatism

What?! What??!! What???!!! What supposed 'genetic material' could supposedly not fit my ethnicity? What is the 'genetic material' of my ethnicity supposed to be? Are you actually reading my posts before replying?

lol .. ask your friend and then claim continuity on his behalf.

What? Where did I suggest that I am able to limit any 'foreign' contributions to my 'genes'? And how would you define what is foreign or native to my 'genes'?

It was a friendly instruction in order to prevent the idiocity of the 'continuity' and I think you should ask Indigen what is native and what foreign even though I would expect from you to know it already since you are so vocal in his advocacy about the "genetical continuity".

"Rightful subject"??? Where are you getting these concepts from?

It;s a derevative of "your" concept of 'continuity'.

Since you are so educated on the topic of genetics and genetic 'subjects', and I definitely am not and have no desire to be, can you please look up how many dog breeds have been used in the creation of the Rottweiler breed, how many different 'genetic materials' have been blended in the process, and how many different breed names does a purebred Rottweiler have? Mind you, the process of creating dog breeds is much simpler than the evolution of ethnicities, so I am by no means trying to equate the two, but if you can't apply your bizarre concept of 'foreign' and, presumably, 'native' genetic material to dog breeds, you have a long way to go before it will make sense in a discussion about indigenous ethnicity.

Aleksandrov,

a friendly remark, first of all you have no idea at all what you are talking about but you are persistent in doing that. Secondly, you opposed me on this subject not because you agree with Indigen but because you tend to disagree with TM, irrespective of what argumentation is given.

And two questions to make the long story short, if you will be kind to answer, do you consider yourself to be a DIRECT descedant of the ancient Macedonians?

And talking about genetical continuity do you have genetical evidence of this continuity or you just decided you take it for granted?


Pozdrav,
Mihail

[indigen]

[QUOTE=Bratot;65992]

And two questions to make the long story short, if you will be kind to answer, do you consider yourself to be a DIRECT descedant of the ancient Macedonians?

And talking about genetical continuity do you have genetical evidence of this continuity or you just decided you take it for granted?

Pozdrav,
Mihail

I consider myself as a DIRECT DESCENDANT (i.e. blood, however pure) and inherit (evolving, without excluding other external inputs over time) cultural continuity from the same forbears! Also remember that I played knuckle bones game as a child, which Aleksandar III Makedonski and other Macedonian children of his time also used to play! :-)

From the following thread: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ad.php?p=45306

Indigen: "....Macedonian Indigenous continuity is not my theory but a widely supported, and logically so, ideology of Macedonian nationalist/patriotic/liberation movements over the ages..."

TM: "Is it widely supported? Highly doubt that...."


Quote:
“.....The terms “Slav Macedonian” has not been and never will be accepted by the Macedonian community in Australia and abroad as it is a vilification and denial of Macedonians’ cultural, ethnic and national identity.

The term “Slav Macedonian” is an offensive slogan of propaganda used by Greek and other oppressors of the Macedonian people in order to usurp the heritage, suppress the identity and deny the existence of the indigenous Macedonians....”

The above two paragraphs are excerpted from the media release and public statement “The National Position of the Macedonian-Australian Community against the Slav-Prefix directive”, issued March 1994 and ENDORSED BY ALL MACEDONIAN ORGANISATIONS IN AUSTRALIA

Quote:
Metropolitan Kiril , opening the Assembly, said:

"Your Holy Archpastors, highly appropriate, all-worthy, and very honorable fathers of our holy Macedonian Orthodox Church, Dear members of the Assembly, Dear representatives of the Macedonian Goverment, Dear guests and friendsof our holy Church, brothers and sisters in God!

On this historic day, blessed by God, we are gathered in the ancient Macedonian...town of Ohrid for a "good deed". We are gathered in the town of St. Clement, under the roof of this most ancient mediaeval Macedonian temple where the Heads of our Holy Church have been elected and enthroned on St. Clement's throne, whose roots we seek and find in the apostolic times of our many centuries and millenia long existence and endurement on our Biblical Macedonian land, impregnated many timesover during the Middle Ages, when its dignity was elevated to the highest Patriarchal Pedestal...."

http://moc-stmary-la.com/stefan-07.htm

-----------

How about you (Bratot) and TM state your positions on whether WE MACEDONIANS have or have not any blood (genetic) continuity from our ancient predecessors on this same land or do you think we are some unrelated MONGREL-BREED FRUIT SALAD made up of unrelated invaders and new settlers (those "tall, blond and blue-eyed" ones with their TRSKI/REEDS that supposedly "MASSIVELY" swam across the Danube and originated from the LEECH-INFESTED PRIPET MARSHES)!?


-----------------------------

"The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." -- Steven Biko

[Bratot]

-----------

How about you (Bratot) and TM state your positions on whether WE MACEDONIANS have or have not any blood (genetic) continuity from our ancient predecessors on this same land or do you think we are some unrelated MONGREL-BREED FRUIT SALAD made up of unrelated invaders and new settlers (those "tall, blond and blue-eyed" ones with their TRSKI/REEDS that supposedly "MASSIVELY" swam across the Danube and originated from the LEECH-INFESTED PRIPET MARSHES)!?


-----------------------------

Funny man, you just ruined the effort of Aleksandrov.
Completely.

Your judgments are badly contaminated by racistic ideologies. (you may not be aware of it)

For the binding of the ethnic group with Y haplogroup would require fulfiling two conditions:

1. the ethnic group comes from one man
2. exactly this was the man where the mutation occured and created the given haplogroup.

This is, biologically imposibile.

Each population for the purpose not to extinct - must share genes

Unfortunatelly, I have to inform you, you are also a genetic "salad", just please don't kill your self yet, it's not so bad, everyone else is too:

http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=12

Tutorial for my friends.

[indigen]

[QUOTE=Bratot;66015]

Funny man, you just ruined the effort of Aleksandrov. Completely.

I am not concerned about A., he seems to represent himself quite well.

Don't beat about the bush and answer the simple question I asked!

Your judgments are badly contaminated by racistic ideologies. (you may not be aware of it)

Maybe, if you consider BC a racist ideology.

For the binding of the ethnic group with Y haplogroup would require fulfiling two conditions:

1. the ethnic group comes from one man
2. exactly this was the man where the mutation occured and created the given haplogroup.

This is, biologically imposibile.

Y-chromosome DNA and mtDNA haplogroup markers are used by geneticists to give an indication of ancestry. Do you disagree?

Each population for the purpose not to extinct - must share genes

Yes, we only differ slightly from apes. And Neanderthals maybe part of European ancestry too, which would extend indigenity a lot further back in time!

[aleksandrov]

"For you to claim" doesn't mean you do, it was said as a condition and it can be general to 'anyone' to claim the same thing.

I precizely explained the 'purity' claim and where it stands in the claims of genetical continuity but maybe your lack of logic and vanity doesn't go together.




I wonder why I had the feeling that I was talking to his advocate.




Continue with your advocacy and do what pleases you, you might be still incapable to understand anything from what I tried to explain in very simple way but you also might be pigheaded on this subject because it suits to you this way.





'Your' - plural, also directed to you since you started your ongoin advocacy of somebody else's statement.

dogmatism
1. a statement of a point of view as if it were an established fact.
2. the use of a system of ideas based upon insufficiently examined premises. — dogmatist, n. — dogmatic, adj

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogmatism

lol .. ask your friend and then claim continuity on his behalf.



It was a friendly instruction in order to prevent the idiocity of the 'continuity' and I think you should ask Indigen what is native and what foreign even though I would expect from you to know it already since you are so vocal in his advocacy about the "genetical continuity".



It;s a derevative of "your" concept of 'continuity'.



Aleksandrov,

a friendly remark, first of all you have no idea at all what you are talking about but you are persistent in doing that. Secondly, you opposed me on this subject not because you agree with Indigen but because you tend to disagree with TM, irrespective of what argumentation is given


Pozdrav,
Mihail

Mihail,

I don't mean to be unfriendly, but your offensive arrogance in a situation where you clearly are not making logical sense is getting a bit too much. I suggest that you carefully re-read all of the relevant posts from the point at which you supported TM in baselessly accusing Indigen of having made a claim to 'genetic purity', and perhaps get somebody to help you with English comprehension, before you continue to open yourself up to ridicule.

I would hate to have to start reposting everything from the beginning, for the benefit of those who may be becoming more confused about the basis for this argument with each of your subsequent nonsensical posts. I suspect that these comments will bruise your ego even more than it is currently bruised, and will make you come back with more spiteful 'inaetenje', but if you take some deep breaths and try to think prudently and rationally about what you are reading and writing you might be able to do yourself a favor by avoiding that. This is my idea of honestly friendly advice. I would offer the same advice to my brother, father, mother, wife, children and best friends, in the given circumstances.

Pozdrav,

And two questions to make the long story short, if you will be kind to answer, do you consider yourself to be a DIRECT descedant of the ancient Macedonians?

Firstly, this is not something that I concern myself with. Secondly, I am not quite sure what 'DIRECT' is supposed to mean in this context. If it means that I have a family tree that I can trace back to the ancient Macedonians, my answer is no. That's why I made a HYPOTHETICAL suggestion about direct genetic continuity from the ancient Macedonians, in an argumentative question that was supposed to help you distinguish between the meaning of genetic continuity and genetic purity. I specifically used the word HYPOTHETICAL.

And talking about genetical continuity do you have genetical evidence of this continuity or you just decided you take it for granted?

I think I have made it pretty clear in previous posts that I do not purport to have evidence of genetic continuity from ancient ancestors, and that it is not something I concern myself with.

Do you have any evidence of your claims about mixed ethnic genes?

[Bratot]

Don't beat about the bush and answer the simple question I asked!

It's imposibile to provide you correct measurable answer.

First off all you have to define the genetic matherial of your ancestors - those who were identifying as Macedonian 2.300 years ago, at least and you have to suppose that their genetic matherial was unchanged before.

You might have a gene proportion of the older populations of the Balkans but you can never find out WHICH.

The region of Macedonia was not genetically isolated nor the mixed marriages were rarity in the past, as an example, only 2 of 7 wife that Philip 2 got were from the Macedonian tribe, Alexander the Great son was from mixed marriage and after all there was group marriage of more than 10.000 Macedonian soldiers with the Persian women.

We are not pure nor exclusive genetical inheritors and we could but doesn't have to carry the same genetical matherial from our ancient ancestors in order to be Macedonians today.

So, by you claiming genetical continuity, you might claim the same with the Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs etc.

I gave you useful tutorial, use it.

[aleksandrov]

[QUOTE=indigen;66000]

Quote:
“.....The terms “Slav Macedonian” has not been and never will be accepted by the Macedonian community in Australia and abroad as it is a vilification and denial of Macedonians’ cultural, ethnic and national identity.

The term “Slav Macedonian” is an offensive slogan of propaganda used by Greek and other oppressors of the Macedonian people in order to usurp the heritage, suppress the identity and deny the existence of the indigenous Macedonians....”

The above two paragraphs are excerpted from the media release and public statement “The National Position of the Macedonian-Australian Community against the Slav-Prefix directive”, issued March 1994 and ENDORSED BY ALL MACEDONIAN ORGANISATIONS IN AUSTRALIA...

I think I remember writing and advocating those paragraphs (as a co-author of the media release) at the age of 20. 16 years later, I have changed my outlook on many things, but not on that. The only thing I would probably change is the use of the term 'vilification' in that way. It kind of implies that being a "Slav" is something evil, yet I don't really know what it is.

[Silver]

I wasn't intending on swooping into this thread started by what I see is a Bulgaroman and his pal, most likely a Vlach who worries about his genes, but there's a reason for everything!

This line of topic, and I believe is the intent, is another sneaky way to keep Macedonians divided, unresolved, arguing and in a broader sense dysfunctional. Some things just never change!

Although its highly unlikely, let me try to make something clear for you TM, Bratot and whoever else. Oh, and TM since you indicate certain people on this forum insinuate that modern Macedonians have been claiming an indigenous culture blah blah blah, are you in any way including my comments in an MPO thread? Of coarse you'll never admit to it but I suspect those particular comments upset you and your friends in the MPO for sure. Well good, HAHAHA I'm glad!

The real story is that nationalism has nothing to do with our desire for basic human rights and our right to call ourselves Macedonian. Whilst our own people are denied entry to their ancestral lands and denied the right to education in their own language the two of you sit here and opine that we are the racists and our claims to that land is questionable (it all comes back to land and who can manage to hang on to it for as long as they can). Nice try! Macedonians have nothing to prove to anyone and we no longer tolerate having to justify who we are. As time goes by the truth will reveal itself. Do you not understand that TM being a Christian and all? Do you not believe in the truth? Do you think that you or someone else or the 'Greeks' can make a truth from a lie? Macedonians have been calling themselves Macedonian longer than 'Bulgarians' have been calling themselves 'Bulgarian', longer than the 'Serbians' have been calling themselves 'Serbian' and of coarse longer than the Arvano-Vlach-Prosfigi have been calling themselves 'Greek' and/or Macedonian, depending on the day of the week. You are only trying to assert upon us more western propaganda about Macedonia with the hope that we become weaker and less resolved so that at the end of the day we may accept our losses. After all, we haven't any proof of our inheritance, right? Good try!

If you are intelligent and fair individuals (but your not) you will agree that nationalism should not be mashed into what our cause means to us and what we want to achieve at the end of the day. That is how our enemies try to make it appear. Nationalism is a modern European creation brought into the Balkans by Imperialist interests. This means that it is not indigenous to Macedonia unlike our people. The Nationalism which exists in the Balkans today only exists to serve foreign 19th century Imperialist interests. Modern history does exactly the same thing and it's long overdo for a revision. How much of history is actually politics and how much is reality? And, how many times do we have to repeat it so you and everyone else who plays your game can go and get a life? One more time? Ok.

'Russia invented 'Serbian' and 'Bulgarian' Nationalism while England, Germany and France for the most part invented Frankensteins monster - 'Greek' Nationalism as the Ottoman Empire (The Sick Man of Europe) began to lose it's grip on those territories. All this in the 1800's! However, after Russia had freed Macedonia from the Ottoman's in 1878 and included it as part of their newborn child 'Bulgaria' otherwise known as Rosemary's Baby, Macedonia it was decided after intense pressure from the Western Powers would remain under the Ottoman yoke until further notice. The main problem with all this was NOBODY ASKED THE MACEDONIANS! After it was discovered by the Westerners probably as early as Byron that the indigenous language spoken in Macedonia was somehow similar to that of Eastern Europe and Russia, panic struck and a convenient Slavic migration theory was devised. A theory to justify new national borders which you are still hanging on to by a nanometer of your fingernail. Furthermore, while they were still in shock a coffin was ordered for the Macedonian Nation to bury it alive. The first nation (nashi) in the world thanks to our great Tsar Philip II. However, approximately 2400 yrs after Macedonia first became a country a new balance of power in the Balkans was decided by outsiders, this time without a Macedonia and simply because according to 'merry old' England too much 'Slavic' influence into the Mediterranean was unacceptable and a threat to western interests. From there on nobody living in Macedonia who spoke the Macedonian language was ever to be referred to as a Macedonian!'

Having to endure a life of slavery under the Ottoman Empire for 500 yrs with no help, sympathy or common decency from the outside, without a developed enlightenment within Macedonia except for those very few forced to sign a paper making them instant 'Bulgarians' so that they may receive an education it took the Macedonians much longer than our psychotic neighbors to develop and nurture their desire for freedom and liberty and then to act on it. If you are referring to this as nationalism give your head a shake TM and stop oversimplifying and labeling everything according to Western and foreign constructs like our enemies do. Stop playing their game and admit that the Uprising in 1903 was the largest most significant people's Uprising Europe has ever seen. Or are you simply too much of a jealous Bulgaroman weasel TM? Grandfathers, mothers, teenagers, even the family dog, they all rose up to fight for their freedom. No artificially imposed nationalism which hides behind professional soldiers can compare to the power of our people's desire to be free. That is what makes us what we are. We have naturally evolved despite all our enemies, marauders, Orthodox murderers and the West. Nobody artificially created and imposed a nationality on Macedonia. It's of the people and only the people. Stop trying to filibuster us by constantly asking where our culture comes from and start asking our neighbours about theirs!

Having said all that, you TM, Bratot, UMD and whoever else choose to insinuate as though on a technicality we should not claim an indigenous Macedonian heritage or a link with all the people who ever lived in that geographical region, including the Ancient Macedonians, imply that in this way we are practicing Arianism and racial purity. This is not only false, it is devious and absolutely disgusting of you! We are a product of every people who ever lived in the geographical region of Macedonia and we are indigenous. A word hated by so many because they are jealous. Nothing more, nothing less. And by doing what you do you serve the interests of 19th century imperialism, our enemies, and our murderers!

Why do we tolerate this kind of infiltration into what we consider a Macedonian forum disguised as simply trying to have an enjoyable discussion? This is not the case, something more sinister is going on here.

[Bratot]

I wasn't intending on swooping into this thread started by what I see is a Bulgaroman who likes MPO cock in his ass and his pal, most likely a Vlach who worries about his genes, but there's a reason for everything!


Stop trying to filibuster us by constantly asking where our culture comes from and start asking our neighbours about theirs, dick heads!

Having said all that, you TM, Bratot, UMD and whoever else choose to insinuate as though on a technicality we should not claim an indigenous Macedonian heritage or a link with all the people who ever lived in that geographical region, including the Ancient Macedonians, implying that in this way we are practicing Arianism and racial purity. This is not only false, it is devious and absolutely disgusting of you! We are a product of every people who ever lived in the geographical region of Macedonia and we are indigenous.
Why do we tolerate this kind of infiltration into what we consider a Macedonian forum disguised as simply trying to have an enjoyable discussion? This is not the case, something more sinister is going on here. And for those who are very angry with what I say you can kiss my Macedonian ass or go to Hell!

I'm not disputing the 'indigenous' character of Macedonians, you silly man.
If you think by becoming "Greek" in arguments will give you more confidence about who you are and who were your ancestors than you are lost case.

You are simply not grownup for this discussion.

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".