Indigen's theory of indigenous culture

[osiris]

som bratoto tm daskale indigen makedonin etc etc some very amazing and committed people here but please all of you see the big picture and cut out the personal attacks we must learn to debate civilly and if we cannot agree to learn to agree to disagree.

[indigen]

Before modern nationalism? When do you think nationalism was born? And when did it arrive in the balkans?

IMO, Macedonian nationalism was born with Filip II and Aleksandar III Makedonski and their deeds contributed in affirming Macedonian nationalism in various periods following. Aleksandar (and the Macedonians) changed the course of World history and consequently, as a result of fame and renown, made Macedonia a Biblical land and Macedonians a Biblical people, forever to remain etched in the history of Mankind.

Some evidence for Ancient Macedonian Nationalism:

Peter Green: "Macedonia was the first large territorial state with an effective centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe". [p.1]

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/green.html

Wilken:
[p. 26] "The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians have grown into a proud masterful nation, which with highly developed national consciousness looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt. This fact too is of prime importance for the understanding of later history."

Key points: (a) "The dislike was reciprocal", (b) "Macedonians had grown into a proud masterful nation", (c) "Highly developed national consciousness", and (d) "looked down upon the Helleness with contempt".

Conclusion: The fact that Macedonians looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt, is not the point I would elevate for "storage" (as J.P. suggests), what I would gladly elevate, though, is the following statement: "proud masterful nation".

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/wilken.html

Polybius:…"For there can be no doubt that by their indefatigable energy and daring they raised Macedonia from the status of a petty kingdom to that of the greatest and most glorious monarchy in the world. And apart what was accomplished during Philip's lifetime, the successes that were achieved by Alexander after his father's death won for them a reputation for valour which has been universally recognized by posterity.".... [Polybius: The Rise of the Roman Empire, published by Penguin Classics, Book VIII.9 page 371.]

Curtius Rufus:
[12] Alexander speaks: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language." [p.138]

[This is again Alexander himself clearly separates the Macedonian as an independent language and the Macedonian way of life, from the Greek language and the Greek way of life which Philotas had referred to be the diplomatic language in the Macedonian court]

[16] "Roxane’s father was transported with unexpected delight when he heard Alexander’s words, and the king, in the heat of passion, ordered bread to be brought, in accordance with their traditions, for this was the most sacred symbol of betrothal among the Macedonians." [p.187] [Another Macedonian custom]

[21] "Starting with Macedonia, I now have power over Greece; I have brought Thrace and the Illyrians under my control; rule the Triballi and the Maedi. I have Asia in my possession from the Hellespont to the Red Sea." [p.227]

[23] "But destiny was already bringing civil war upon the Macedonian nation." [p.254]

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/curtius.html

[osiris]

indigen good post by what do you mean by this.

Aleksandar made Macedonia a Biblical land and Macedonians a Biblical people

[indigen]

indigen good post by what do you mean by this.

It seemed like a good idea to say that at the time, Osiris. :-)

Though there is the Book of Daniel, my logic in saying what I said is that the fame and glory of the Macedonians and Macedonia after the achievements of conquest (and some liberation from Persian rule, e.g. Egypt, amongst others) and empire under Alexander cemented the identity of both - the land and people - so that they were able to enter as biblical entities later on.

----------------

Porphyrius: Comments on the book of Daniel

These extracts come from a long polemic, "Against the Christians", which Porphyrius wrote in the late third century A.D. Not surprisingly, the whole work was banned when the Roman Empire became officially Christian, and all remaining copies were publicly burnt in 448 A.D.
Some passages about the historical basis of the book of Daniel have survived, because they were quoted in St.Jerome's commentary on Daniel. They are translated from Jacoby's text in FGrH_260.
The references in green are to St.Jerome's commentary.

[35] [prologue] In his twelfth book Porphyrius wrote about the prophet Daniel. He said that the book of Daniel was written not by the man whom it is named after, but by someone who lived in Judaea at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes; and so instead of Daniel predicting the future, this writer describes what has already happened. So whatever he mentions up to the time of Antiochus is true history, but whatever he touches on after that time, because the writer could not foretell the future, is fiction. Expert replies to this argument have been composed by Eusebius, Apollinarius, and previously in part by Methodius.

[36] [prologue] To understand the last part of the book of Daniel, is it necessary to consult many Greek histories: namely the histories of Suctorius Callinicus, Diodorus, Hieronymus, Polybius, Posidonius, Claudius Theon and Andronicus Alipius, whose accounts Porphyrius says that he is following. Josephus and the authors whom Josephus quotes [especially our Livius, Pompeius Trogus, and Justinus, all tell the history of the period which is referred to in the final vision, and] also describe the wars between Syria and Egypt, that is between Seleucus and Antiochus and the Ptolemaei, from Alexander up until the reign of Caesar Augustus,.

[37] [7'7] Porphyrius assigns both of the last two beasts (the Macedonians and the Romans) to the Macedonian empire ... the "leopard" he interprets as Alexander himself, and the beast which is different from the rest as the four successors of Alexander. And then he lists ten cruel kings up until Antiochus Epiphanes, and he does not choose the kings of one kingdom, for instance of Macedonia, Egypt, or Syria, but he creates a single line of kings out of the different kingdoms. He clearly believes that the words "a mouth speaking boastfully" refer not to the Antichrist but to Antiochus.

[38] [7'8] Porphyrius wrongly suspects that the little horn, which came up after the ten horns, is Antiochus Epiphanes, and that the three horns which were uprooted out of the ten horns are Ptolemaeus VI Philometor, Ptolemaeus VII Euergetes, and Artaxias the king of Armenia. Of these, the first two died long before Antiochus was born; we know that Antiochus fought against Artaxias, but Artaxias remained in possession of his kingdom as before.

[39] [9'1] This is the Darius who along with Cyrus conquered the Chaldaeans and Babylonians; unless we think that he is the Darius in whose second year the temple was built - which is what Porphyrius supposes, in order to stretch out the years of Daniel - or the Darius who was conquered by Alexander, the king of the Macedonians.

[40] [11'2] He says that four kings will arise in Persia after Cyrus: Cambyses the son of Cyrus, Smerdes the Magus, who married Pantaptes the daughter of Cambyses, and after Smerdes was killed (?) by the seven magi and Darius came to power in his place, the same Pantaptes married Darius and bore him a son Xerxes. Xerxes was a very powerful and wealthy king, and invaded Greece with an enormous army, as is related in the histories of Greece. He burnt down Athens when Callias was archon, and at that time there was a battle at Thermopylae and a sea battle at Salamis. Around the same time, Sophocles and Euripides were in their prime and Themistocles fled to the Persians, where he died after drinking bull's blood. Therefore [Porphyrius] is wrong to write that Darius, who was defeated by Alexander, was the fourth king; this Darius was not the fourth, but the fourteenth king of the Persians after Cyrus, and in the seventh year of his reign he was defeated and killed by Alexander.

[41] [11'3-4] [Alexander] was the son of Philippus. He defeated the Illyrians and Thracians, conquered Greece and destroyed Thebes. Then he crossed over to Asia, defeated the generals of Darius and captured the city of Sardis. Afterwards he conquered India and founded the city of Alexandria, and when he was 32 years old and had reigned for 12 years, he died at Babylon. After Alexander, his empire was divided amongst "the four winds of heaven"; in Egypt the first king was Ptolemaeus the son of Lagus . . . in Macedonia, Philippus Aridaeus the brother of Alexander . . . in Syria and Babylonia and the eastern provinces, Seleucus Nicanor . . . in Asia and Pontus and the other provinces of that region, Antigonus . . . who succeeded [his?] brother Philippus as king of the Macedonians, because [Philippus] did not have any children . . . and as well as these four kingdoms, the Macedonian empire was chopped up further amongst minor and insignificant kings; by which he means Perdiccas and Craterus and Lysimachus. Cappadocia and Armenia, Bithynia and Heracleia, Bosphorus and some other provinces threw off Macedonian control, and appointed their own separate kings.

[...]

http://www.attalus.org/translate/daniel.html

[osiris]

indigen your post points out the irony in the eu's position on macedonia, the first european nation state and the model for bismarks germany is not considered suitable for eu membership.

[Pelister]

The presence of an indigenous Macedonian culture is incontrovertible. The fact that that culture predates the rise of modern nationalism in the region, suggests that the Macedonians got their identity as Christian Macedonians, and ideas about their ancient Macedonian ancestry - not from modern nationalism, but from old Macedonian folklore that has been passed on from century to century down the ages.

[indigen]

The presence of an indigenous Macedonian culture is incontrovertible. The fact that that culture predates the rise of modern nationalism in the region, suggests that the Macedonians got their identity as Christian Macedonians, and ideas about their ancient Macedonian ancestry - not from modern nationalism, but from old Macedonian folklore that has been passed on from century to century down the ages.

Macedonians are the indigenous people of Macedonia and have an evolving cultural continuity from even pre-ancient times. Ancient Macedonians also became the first Christians in Europe and thus would share many of these religious cultural elements with present day Macedonians.

We must also not forget that Ancient Macedonians were conquered, suppressed and their country split up into four entities by the Roman conquerors. Therefore we must not see our ancient ancestors as conquerors only but that they were oppressed and conquered more often than not and with the rise of military power under Filip II and Alexander III, it was a case of conquer or be conquered.


Playing with knucklebones is a cultural element I, along with other Macedonians, may have shared with Aleksandar! :-)

The Deeds of Alexander of Macedon (The Alexander Romance) BOOK I. 39, Page 73
"...King Darius greets the generals beyond the Taurus. It is reported to me that Alexander, the son of Philip, is in rebellion. Capture him and bring him to me; but do him no physical harm, so that I may remove his purple robe and beat him and send him back home to his country to his mother, Olympias. I shall give him...knucklebones, such as Macedonian children play with...."

[indigen]

Indigen: Macedonian Indigenous continuity is not my theory but a widely supported, and logically so, ideology of Macedonian nationalist/patriotic/liberation movements over the ages.

TM: Hmmm,,, logically eh,,, I would dare say that most of what is written is true. However we are only assuming amongst ourselves what is true (when I mean ourselves I mean people like you who buy into this theory). There is no way that a Macedonian identity existed in alot of Macedonian chronological history. A Christian (religious) identity was the longest running identity in Macedonia ever. There's way too many holes in what you and some people consider logical.

TM: Is it widely supported? Highly doubt that. Many Macedonians today care more about the accomplishments of Goce Delchev than of Aleksander Makedonski.

Aleksandar would be a clear winner by far as an IDIOL and national symbol for most Macedonians, even more so amongst the diaspora communities.

FYI, Macedonian continuity neither starts nor ends with the approximately dozen years of Alexander's campaigns for conquest and empire. Ancient Macedonians were also conquered and became the first Christians in Europe, where the Church was first established as an organised body on the continent.

Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
How does supporting the accomplishments of Macedonians in more recent history (i.e. Goce Delchev) negate or contradict supporting the accomplishments of Macedonians in ancient history?

True enough. However a Macedonian today has more in common with Goce Delchev than with Aleksander Makedonski. Religion, language, common cause, etc. Macedonians today are not in a conquest to rule the known world. They are struggling to survive in it. So there is a huge difference. Folk songs and tales about Alexander the Great are a part of Macedonia's history. Respect for Macedonia's history is one thing. To claim an unbroken continuos one makes us no better than Macedonia's southern neighbors.

You seem confused in trying to spin evolving Macedonian genetic and cultural continuity into some "time frozen" version from only Alexander's Approx 12 year reign that nobody promotes. Macedonians are NOT some LOST STONE AGE TRIBE that has had no contact with others. We have GENETIC CONTINUITY and thus are DIRECT DESCENDANTS (and nobody is saying pure anything!) of our great and illustrious ancestors, without a doubt.

[makedonche]

Indigen
Un Taka - eloquently put! I'll have to quote you from now on!

[indigen]

Indigen: "....Macedonian Indigenous continuity is not my theory but a widely supported, and logically so, ideology of Macedonian nationalist/patriotic/liberation movements over the ages..."

TM: "Is it widely supported? Highly doubt that...."

“.....The terms “Slav Macedonian” has not been and never will be accepted by the Macedonian community in Australia and abroad as it is a vilification and denial of Macedonians’ cultural, ethnic and national identity.

The term “Slav Macedonian” is an offensive slogan of propaganda used by Greek and other oppressors of the Macedonian people in order to usurp the heritage, suppress the identity and deny the existence of the indigenous Macedonians....”

The above two paragraphs are excerpted from the media release and public statement “The National Position of the Macedonian-Australian Community against the Slav-Prefix directive”, issued March 1994 and ENDORSED BY ALL MACEDONIAN ORGANISATIONS IN AUSTRALIA

Metropolitan Kiril , opening the Assembly, said:

"Your Holy Archpastors, highly appropriate, all-worthy, and very honorable fathers of our holy Macedonian Orthodox Church, Dear members of the Assembly, Dear representatives of the Macedonian Goverment, Dear guests and friendsof our holy Church, brothers and sisters in God!

On this historic day, blessed by God, we are gathered in the ancient Macedonian...town of Ohrid for a "good deed". We are gathered in the town of St. Clement, under the roof of this most ancient mediaeval Macedonian temple where the Heads of our Holy Church have been elected and enthroned on St. Clement's throne, whose roots we seek and find in the apostolic times of our many centuries and millenia long existence and endurement on our Biblical Macedonian land, impregnated many timesover during the Middle Ages, when its dignity was elevated to the highest Patriarchal Pedestal...."
http://moc-stmary-la.com/stefan-07.htm

[Serdarot]

before any other discussion in direction that we, the Macedonians, are NOT indigenous inhabitans of Macedonia, i would like to see SINGLE proof that we came from somewhere...

btw, i do not believe in the "indigenous theory"

i know that we are indigenous, we are NATIVES there.

thumb up indigen

[Silver]

It's so unfortunate for us Macedonians that up until recently we had been buried for dead all for the sake of European Imperialist, Nationalist and Fascist ideologies.

Something important that needs to be indicated to all the overconfident slavies and gerkomani out there is that YOU my friends are suckers who believe in the equivalent of a flat earth when you imply that there ever was a slavic migration. Let's examine the good old slavic migration theory first of all with reference to the time this false idea and concept was actually written.

What was the leading and dominant dogma of the time? Anyone know? Even up until the early nineteenth century man believed that the earth was only 5000 yrs old. So the slavic migration theory developed out of this frame of reference. History was written to agree with the fairytale of a 5000 yr old earth. I got news for the slavies and for the gerkomani out there. The earth is not 5000 yrs old it is 5,000,000,000 yrs old. Don't ask me to prove it. Herodotus is not the real father of history and no one can answer who is. Westerners would never bother to analyze volumes of written historical text which predate Herodotus by thousands of years simply because it is irrelevant to their ideology!

So how come we have no more slavery for example while technology and science have advanced at such a great extent from leeches to penicillin or bleeding to chemotherapy, but the slavic migration theory still rings true in the hearts of a slavie, your common gerkoman and mainstream western history? Well the reason for that can be found in the words of John Shea, “The world is not yet ready for Macedonian history”. It's not. Nationalism which is still and will be for a very long time a powerful ingredient that brings out the psychotic in everyone will make sure to that. Until the human species can develop beyond the nationalist paradigm we're fucked. I mean the whole fucking world that is.

Yes, John Shea has it exactly right. If you want to go along with something just because some western tool of a professor says it's so. Than do so. But even you know the truth. Even the western professor does, and the bulshitters who ever gave someone a 'Bulgarian' or 'Greek' education know the truth as well.

[sf.]

You mean the Earth isn't flat? I need to reassess my whole understanding of the world now. Thank you for that remarkable piece of logical argument you have presented.

[julie]

Silver you sound like my eldest son, he is 20 and in his 3rd year of biomedical nanotechnology at uni - he has decided he is now an atheist and says comments like - all you Christians are the same you believe the earth was only born 5000 years ago and that the earth is flat.

I get into some wonderful debates with him - not ALL followers of Jesus beleive in this theory, that evolution has gone on a lot longer than 5000 years

I posted this on his facebook wall

" All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom." Albert Einstein

To which the cheeky bugger posted back onto mine

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

-Douglas Adams

[Silver]

You mean the Earth isn't flat? I need to reassess my whole understanding of the world now. Thank you for that remarkable piece of logical argument you have presented.

Thanks for coming out, my post must have hit an ion somewhere in your subconcious....