Macedonian Nationalism

[Prolet]

Silver, I must agree with alot of what you had to say, but not on the criticism of some of the forum members.

We talk about nationalism, we are not nationalistic at all and the worst part is that we only have ourselves to blame and i'll give a few examples to that.

I dont want to turn this into a political debate but lets mention the statues for a moment. When the list came out of all the statues that were to be put in the city square of Skopje, the first thing the people did was say that it was an empty promise based on nationalism and sparking tensions. Once we saw the statues being put up, the first ones where Goce Delcev and Dame Gruev people then started saying how we were poor and that it was a disgrace to spend money on statues because our people were starving. I will give another example, the Visa Liberalization... for years, decades the komunjari were saying how we are a closed country with a Schengen wall we couldnt go anywhere we couldnt travel,we couldnt go on holidays once we got Visa Liberalization then people still said that we were poor and we couldnt travel anywhere because we didnt have money so whatever happens to us even if its good we have cowards who are there waiting to hit us over the head with a sledge hammer even if for one moment something good is happening to us.

Look at Bulgaria and Greece they pride themselves with nationalism, as soon as you cross the border into Egejska Makedonija there is a big blue sign saying Welcome to Macedonia then another that says Macedonia is Greek this is on our land too, the Bulgarians are doing it in Pirinska Makedonija aswell. We are being accused by the west of being nationalists when nearly 20 years ago the Solun Airport was renamed to Macedonia now all of the sudden the Skopje Airport cant be called Aleksander the Great? We have traitors in the media who openly persue other interests just to nail us to the ground, when in reality our neighbors are far more nationalistic then we are and they are occupires of our territory.

We are by far the most tolerant country in the Balkans, we respect our minorities more then we respect ourselves for that matter. Nationalism is a good thing, its good to be proud of who you are,where you come from,our traditions,our food,our cities,our villages,our people,our culture,our music,our history,our national heroes but at the same time we need to respect others and their cultures which we do anyways so i see no reason why we should be bowing our heads down when in reality we have not done any harm to anybody.

Just like Nikola Gruevski said in Meckin Kamen a few days ago:

"We respect all our neighbors and we want to cooperate with all of them, as we are already doing. We do not want to take away anything from anyone, be it territory, culture, history etc. However, we do not want anything taken away from us too. We are a tolerant and peaceful nation"

If our neighbors said the same thing i would be very happy, but as the old saying goes, God gave us a wonderful country but he also gave us terrible neighbors.

[Silver]

Prolet, I'm not saying that we are not or should not be patriotic. Of course we are, however our nationalism if you want to call it that is a natural progression and evolution built up by Macedonians and only Macedonians through immense and unspeakable suffering. Our neighbors nationalism is artificial and imposed on them by outsiders to a point where they have no idea what they really are and they are insane.

When used by the west to describe us nationalism is a dirty word. It certainly isn't when its directed at them.

I'm proud of our statues, proud of our country, history, culture, symbols and I'm staunchly patriotic. I respect minorities and respect all people. However, I'm Macedonian and I demand now to be respected by others for who I am. Not hated for who I am.

I'm not disputing the 'indigenous' character of Macedonians, you silly man.
If you think by becoming "Greek" in arguments will give you more confidence about who you are and who were your ancestors than you are lost case.

You are simply not grownup for this discussion.

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".

If you are not disputing the indigenous nature of Macedonians what the hell are you disputing you imbecile? Why have you wasted day after day babbling on here for? Do you not have a job?

Your only reason to say anything is to accuse whoever and whenever it becomes expedient to do so of acting like a 'Greek' or racist. Take your crap and go jump in a lake.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I wasn't intending on swooping into this thread started by what I see is a Bulgaroman who likes MPO cock in his ass and his pal, most likely a Vlach who worries about his genes, but there's a reason for everything!

You should have stuck to your non-intentions, what an abrupt and inappropriate way to enter this discussion, I am disappointed in you Silver, I expected better than this. Should you choose to make such allegations in future about TM and Bratot, you'd better substantiate them, or keep your own conspiracy theories to yourself. These two individuals have been valuable members of the MTO since it practically began and have contributed immensly to the research and revelation of historical sources and literature that we were otherwise ignorant of. And now you come accusing one of being a Bulgaroman and the other a Vlach? On what basis and authority do you make such an assessment? Show me one solid piece of evidence for either allegation?

Why do we tolerate this kind of infiltration into what we consider a Macedonian forum disguised as simply trying to have an enjoyable discussion? This is not the case, something more sinister is going on here. And for those who are very angry with what I say you can kiss my Macedonian ass or go to Hell!

Why don't you tell me exactly what is going on here, because apparently I am too ignorant to see the truth. I would like to know, specifically, what has led you to believe that TM and Bratot are Bulgaroman and Vlach respectively. Can you?

Why have you wasted day after day babbling on here for? Do you not have a job?

I am positive he has some form of occupation, yet he still contributes here, quite often on a large scale. What have you contributed to the MTO since your arrival, Silver?

Take your crap and go jump in a lake.

Mate, you're full of charm, aren't you. Keep that sort of shit out of here.

[Risto the Great]

By all means start a thread called "customs of Macedonian throughout the ages", but to equate it with Nationality and Nationalism and see us justifying our present existence online is demeaning. I will stick with that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

By all means start a thread called "customs of Macedonian throughout the ages", but to equate it with Nationality and Nationalism and see us justifying our present existence online is demeaning. I will stick with that.

I agree, perhaps it's not the right thread.

Who has asked you to justify your existence? Or is the discussion of probabilities and possibilities with regard to those customs enough to be considered demeaning? Are the accusations about 'bulgaromans' and 'vlachs' that stem from difference of opinion warranted? I hardly think so.

[Silver]

By all means start a thread called "customs of Macedonian throughout the ages", but to equate it with Nationality and Nationalism and see us justifying our present existence online is demeaning. I will stick with that.

Exactly Risto! How often do we have to justify ourselves?

SoM, you’re showing that you hardly fit the bill to wear the avatar of Philip the Great. You’d be more suitable wearing it at Maknews with the rest of the Slav men. Did you not read my post? Am I supposed to repeat every god damn thing I said or are you just defending your ‘bro’? Is he not man enough to do that now that the cats out of the bag? Where are you and the rest of the peanut gallery when our views are labelled Arian & racist? Do you mean to tell me that you believe that? If no, then why do you tolerate it? You’re on shaky ground yourself pal.

I spoke my mind and gave my opinion. I’m sticking to that whether you like it or not.

[iskra]

I think that this thread has really degenerated into a source of tension and disunity. It has become pointless and to carry on is obviously not going to be productive of anything positive. I think it would be best if everybody just forgets about it and moves on to something else. In fact I would like to see it locked up and just slide off the front page so that everyone can get on with something more positive. By the way I am not blaming anyone, I just think it has gone wrong and that it is pointless to continue........

[Vangelovski]

In fact I would like to see it locked up and just slide off the front page so that everyone can get on with something more positive.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Locked threads are for Maknews, not open and honest debate.

[Silver]

I think that this thread has really degenerated into a source of tension and disunity. It has become pointless and to carry on is obviously not going to be productive of anything positive. I think it would be best if everybody just forgets about it and moves on to something else. In fact I would like to see it locked up and just slide off the front page so that everyone can get on with something more positive. By the way I am not blaming anyone, I just think it has gone wrong and that it is pointless to continue........

Another censorship request? And that's how we'll come to a consensus. Go figure.

[iskra]

My apologies, Vangelovski and Silver, yes you have rightly pointed out that locking the thread would constitute a form of censorship. So I will now take that request back.

As for the debate, considering the tone and type of language being used, I doubt very much that a consensus will be reached. Though I hope I am wrong.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, you’re showing that you hardly fit the bill to wear the avatar of Philip the Great. You’d be more suitable wearing it at Maknews with the rest of the Slav men.

On the other hand, you have shown that your lack of knowledge and inability to discuss in a diplomatic manner perfectly fit the bill of your 'avatar', which displays nothing. I don't appreciate being labelled with your bogus terminology, save it for the other juveniles, or, you can go back to Maknews from whence you came.

I supposed to repeat every god damn thing I said or are you just defending your ‘bro’?

To begin with, it would help if you corroborated every "god damn thing" you say.

Is he not man enough to do that now that the cats out of the bag?

What cat? What bag? What are you talking about? Can you corroborate what you're talking about? Enough with this cloak and dagger garbage, if you have something to say, then out with it, directly, and back up your assertions.

Where are you and the rest of the peanut gallery when our views are labelled Arian & racist?

Who is the "rest" of the peanut gallery you fruit loop? At what point exactly did you start turning into an imbecile, because you certainly weren't one when you first came here? You seem to be running around like some cheerleader, what's your purpose at the MTO? What have YOU contributed to the MTO? I asked you before, do I need to ask you the same question again?

You’re on shaky ground yourself pal.

Shaky ground for what? What are you talking about? Is my integrity as a Macedonian being questioned? If so, by whom, you?

I spoke my mind and gave my opinion.

Any fool can speak their mind and give their opinion, it takes one with principle and integrity to back up their own statements.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I consider myself as a DIRECT DESCENDANT (i.e. blood, however pure) and inherit (evolving, without excluding other external inputs over time) cultural continuity from the same forbears!

Indigen, in the above quote you consider yourself to be an inheritor or 'external inputs', which indicates a mixture of foreign elements (at least to a certain degree) in the evolution of Macedonians.

MONGREL-BREED FRUIT SALAD

What exactly do you mean by 'mongrel-breed fruit salad'?

[Vangelovski]

Indigen, in the above quote you consider yourself to be an inheritor or 'external inputs', which indicates a mixture of foreign elements (at least to a certain degree) in the evolution of Macedonians.

SoM,

I don't think Indigen ever claimed absolute purity in any sense, parituclarly in the sense that Bratot is trying to attribute to him.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM,

I don't think Indigen ever claimed absolute purity in any sense, parituclarly in the sense that Bratot is trying to attribute to him.

Vangelovski, I don't recall anything about absolute purity either, but I do believe that what I have quoted above requires clarity.

[Bratot]

Mihail,

I don't mean to be unfriendly, but your offensive arrogance in a situation where you clearly are not making logical sense is getting a bit too much. I suggest that you carefully re-read all of the relevant posts from the point at which you supported TM in baselessly accusing Indigen of having made a claim to 'genetic purity', and perhaps get somebody to help you with English comprehension, before you continue to open yourself up to ridicule.

I would hate to have to start reposting everything from the beginning, for the benefit of those who may be becoming more confused about the basis for this argument with each of your subsequent nonsensical posts. I suspect that these comments will bruise your ego even more than it is currently bruised, and will make you come back with more spiteful 'inaetenje', but if you take some deep breaths and try to think prudently and rationally about what you are reading and writing you might be able to do yourself a favor by avoiding that. This is my idea of honestly friendly advice. I would offer the same advice to my brother, father, mother, wife, children and best friends, in the given circumstances.

Pozdrav,

Aleksandrov,

I hold no animosity for anyone but don't underestimate me and trying to be Indigen rescuer when he repeatedly confirmed his racistic claim about the how he comprehend the "continuity".

He doesn't have to use the exact term 'purity' in order to qualify his claim of 'genetical continuity' opposite from the "salad" in order to be "direct" descendant.

And don't use such lame tactic as if my English have caused so wrong comprehension of what was exactly said. That's shallow try to be honest.

What could "salad" means if not some proportion of foreign genes and than logically it's about being 'pure', hmm? Or you will continue ignoring the sane logic?

Firstly, this is not something that I concern myself with. Secondly, I am not quite sure what 'DIRECT' is supposed to mean in this context. If it means that I have a family tree that I can trace back to the ancient Macedonians, my answer is no. That's why I made a HYPOTHETICAL suggestion about direct genetic continuity from the ancient Macedonians, in an argumentative question that was supposed to help you distinguish between the meaning of genetic continuity and genetic purity. I specifically used the word HYPOTHETICAL.

Yes, it means exactly that.

And stop worrying about me, I can distinquish the terminology pretty well.

Well... according to Indigen we are 'direct' descedants.

But you should ask your self what is such absurdal claim suggesting in line with the "clean" genetical continuity?

I think I have made it pretty clear in previous posts that I do not purport to have evidence of genetic continuity from ancient ancestors, and that it is not something I concern myself with.

I didn't said you do Aleksandrov, but I had to get these answers from you in order to get you to some reasonable thinking.

So, talking about such 'genetic continuity' and holding so tightly about it, in order to provide some imagined condition to prove our indigenous existance can be very easy harmful to the clear meaning of being a Macedonian today.

When I said that we shouldn't get into the Greek trap of " proving the direct ancestry " if we want to be called Macedonians I had on mind exactly what Indigen is doing.
Who have ever seen such cond
ition to be made in order to be fulfilled from some group of people to have the right to identify themselfs with their ancestors who lived 24 centuries ago?

It's very clear to me, what they want to achieve with this trap, since it's basicaly impossible to track such genealogy and it's biological absurd to preserve the exactly same genetic matherial with your ancient ancestors.

Do you have any evidence of your claims about mixed ethnic genes?

It's a biological law Aleksandrov, every single genetic anylise so far have provided clear genetical diversity in every single human being, which is pretty much logical.

The other absurdal dimenssion in this claim is the "ethnic" genetical continuity, which will make us not only to lose every possible credibility in our rightful cause but we will enter a contest of new racist ideology.

The genetical claim of continuity would have totally different meaning if it was put in a different manner.

We do have a genetical continuity, but it's a continuity we share with all of the populations surrounding us in a wider regional meaning.

We are not able to define the genes of our Macedonian ancestors and even if we do, they will also show a diversity rate since the transmition of the genetical matherial is not a isolated process, and they will also share that matherial with the rest of the ancient Balkan populations as we do today.

But if we chose the path of Indigen logics, than every our neighboor will be equally or nearly genetical 'Macedonian' as we are.

I don't see at this as a threat to us if we say that we share the genetic continuity with all of the Balkan populations and Europe.

We can equally claim genetical continuity of every single ancient population that had place on Balkans but the shape of our ethnic consciousness was formed and maintained irrespectively of the genetical proportions or 'foreign' genes in us.

One good example can be the Hungarians who both culturally and ethnically significantly differ from their surrounding:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17632797

and tell me, in your opinion Aleksandrov, does the modern Hungarians have lost the right to be 'Hungarians' anymore since they cannot provide genetical continuity with their ancient ancestors?

And if you ask me personally, I wonder what is proving that some corps dated from ancient times are those who exactly lived there continously and how we can confirm how they identified themselfs so we could be able to compare to them and to look for a 'link' to our ancestors?