Macedonian Nationalism

[Pelister]

Anyways Pelister since I see your getting active on this topic would you care to answer this question that I asked you on Maknews?

Who made the rule that we have to be descended from the ancient Macedonians in order to call ourselves Macedonians? Why does it have to stretch back to Filip and Alexander the Great in order for people to be rightful Macedonians?

That is a question I would expect a UMD activist to ask. There is a line of people ready to revise our identity and revise our history for us. You should realise by now that our claims to be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians is not a 'rule' that someone made up. It isn't the latest fad. It is not something that just happen to come along, nor is it the product of 19th and 20th century nationalism, although I will concede there is an association there. I am saying we have always known that we were the descendants of the ancient Macedonians, its in our folklore, TM. The trouble being stirred up by UMD activists that we are not the descendants of the ancient Macedonians has been influencing interpretations for some time now, and we are beginning to see an emerging section of the diaspora telling the rest of us that our belief system is wrong. Our customs don't stretch back to the time of Filip and the ancient Macedonian Kings, they stretch back much further than that. What is significant in my view is that they are local.

[aleksandrov]

TM,

Stop snaking around the fundamentals and insulting our intelligence with your laughable pretense of having the intellectual capacity to judge ANYBODY'S education, knowledge or analytical ability.

Try to be man enough to state directly and clearly what you stand for.

What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?

What point in history do you claim that the evolution of the Macedonian ethnicity and/or nation starts from?

Why do you consider the Sun in your avatar to be a Macedonian symbol? Does it originate from your Christian forebears or the 'pagans' of an allegedly discontinued era?

Since you persistently infer that if a person wants to rely on any fact presented by a writer he/she must agree with that writer's theory, state clearly whether you agree with Pulevski's or Misirkov's theory of the origins of the Macedonian nation or ethnicity. You can't have it both ways.

What school of thought is it that led you to replace the "ov" from my surname with an "off"? What language is it that you are using?

Have you ever been an MPO member, supporter or symapthizer?

Stop this silly practice of purporting to answer questions by pasting passages from books that do not directly address the specific question. Any dullard can do that.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, I am not sure what to make of this.
Here is what your answer was about being descended from Bulgarians:I think I know what you mean. I think anything familiar about Bulgarians is actually Macedonian.
Do you have to stand for anything in relation to this? It could be argued that any pagan rituals that preceded Christianity may well be the unique factors everyone is trying to talk about here. I suspect if Macedonia became a muslim country, using your logic, you may well stand for the Islam era and the enlightened muslim whoever who wrote such important muslim whatevers. I simply don't know how any one period can be embraced in isolation.

Maybe I need to re-read this thread. But what are your conclusions in relation to this thread topic TM?

The term "Bulgarian" was used to denote a labor-social identity(farmer, commoner, peasant). The term later evolved to one that meant a member of the Exarchate church. It was also used to refer to anyone who was a "Slav" or someone who spoke a Slavic language.

Risto my personal opinion regarding our Christian past is due to the fact that I can see the evidence of this cultural legacy. I don't doubt that there are very few things that have come from antiquity that is practiced today in Macedonia and amongst Macedonians (as SoM has pointed out). I appreciate the ancient history of Macedonia like I do all facets and eras of Macedonian history. But I feel the majority of Macedonians today celebrate more of a cultural connection with the Macedonians who helped Paul spread Christianity and build churches.

My conclusions in relation to this topic so far is that there seems to be a sort of fear of questioning ourselves for our own benefit of better understanding. Although some members like Bratot and SoM have answered and are willing to go even further with this is what will sustain this discussion. Simple answers like "I just feel we are related to the ancient Macedonians" is not good enough. Grks feel like they are the descendents of the ancient Hellenes. And we all know that's BS. All I am asking for is evidence and to ask more questions for better understanding.

[TrueMacedonian]

I wonder how much of our pagan past can be found in our culture today, I would imagine it would make interesting reading and study...to place all of our eggs in the religious basket would be to dilute our rich culture and the very evolution of religion itself...i don't think you can have one (religion) without the acknowledgement of the other (paganism)...

I wonder that as well Phoenix. What is "indigenous" and what isn't? What is "foreign" and what is recent?

[TrueMacedonian]

I agree Phoenix, if you want to be honest about history you need to try to be inclusive and avoid attempting to hide elements you find distasteful. Though I don't think TM is trying to hide anything, I think he is just saying that on a personal level, he feels closer to this rather than that and I don't think he is suggesting that everyone else has to feel the same way.

From what I have read of this thread, it certainly is not the time for TM or anybody else to be drawing any major conclusions.What this thread has done, is raise some interesting questions that need to be discussed systematically under a variety of headings and probably the best place to do that would be in the history section. There is no need for animosity or for people to try to create taboos about words like "Slav". True historical discussions cannot undermine the existence of any nation. If a nation exists, then it is already historically justified. The rest is just about the ride. We should not confuse the writings of Greeks on Macedonia with historical writing. The writings of Greek historians on Macedonia, mostly do not qualify as historical. Their writing is just mostly political propaganda designed to serve truly nasty ends.

And I am all open to discuss as much as anybody else is willing to.

[TrueMacedonian]

That is a question I would expect a UMD activist to ask. There is a line of people ready to revise our identity and revise our history for us. You should realise by now that our claims to be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians is not a 'rule' that someone made up. It isn't the latest fad. It is not something that just happen to come along, nor is it the product of 19th and 20th century nationalism, although I will concede there is an association there. I am saying we have always known that we were the descendants of the ancient Macedonians, its in our folklore, TM. The trouble being stirred up by UMD activists that we are not the descendants of the ancient Macedonians has been influencing interpretations for some time now, and we are beginning to see an emerging section of the diaspora telling the rest of us that our belief system is wrong. Our customs don't stretch back to the time of Filip and the ancient Macedonian Kings, they stretch back much further than that. What is significant in my view is that they are local.

Oh geez not the UMD thing. Let's keep them out of this. Pelister there's alot of folklore out there. How old are these folktales and folksongs? 200 years ago? 300 years ago? Folklore is an important factor in Nationalism and Culture. But what I am asking is why is it that we have to be descended from ancient Macedonians in order to be Macedonian? What about someone like Pitu Guli? Where would he fit in?
As for our customs stretching back before the times of Filip and Alexander can you please provide the evidence so we can discuss this in further detail?

[Bratot]

Th

Risto my personal opinion regarding our Christian past is due to the fact that I can see the evidence of this cultural legacy. I don't doubt that there are very few things that have come from antiquity that is practiced today in Macedonia and amongst Macedonians (as SoM has pointed out). I appreciate the ancient history of Macedonia like I do all facets and eras of Macedonian history. But I feel the majority of Macedonians today celebrate more of a cultural connection with the Macedonians who helped Paul spread Christianity and build churches.

But you are missing something very important TM, and that's the transition from pre-Christianity legacy incorporated in the Christian character of Macedonians.

The Christianity is simply modified form of the "ancient" culture, religions, philosophy, symbolism... etc.

Not forgeting that the "Ancient" period lasted till the end of the 5th Century AD, the historical period before the "Middle ages".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history

So, we can freely say the Christianity is also part of our ancient history, if we chosed to hold onto such deffinitions of the past.

To prevent from falling into "Christian" variants, you must first delete the knowledge of Christianity known from the Christian point of view and see things from the Pagan perspective.

Here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=65603#post65603

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

Stop snaking around the fundamentals and insulting our intelligence with your laughable pretense of having the intellectual capacity to judge ANYBODY'S education, knowledge or analytical ability.

Try to be man enough to state directly and clearly what you stand for.

I answered you at the bottom of page 16 of this topic on post # 158. I already stated where I stood. Maybe if you want a re-cap you should read my reply to Risto.

What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?

Macedonians.

What point in history do you claim that the evolution of the Macedonian ethnicity and/or nation starts from?

The nation has existed since antiquity with a few breaks in between. Ethnicity has evolved for millenias. However there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when. Unless you have the answer for us?

Why do you consider the Sun in your avatar to be a Macedonian symbol? Does it originate from your Christian forebears or the 'pagans' of an allegedly discontinued era?

It's one of the rare few cultural aspects that was carried down from antiquity. It can be found in Macedonian Churches and in religious paintings. It's a symbol that Macedonians wanted to represent their nation after the break-up of Yugoslavia. It's a symbol and flag I prefer over the 8-ray flag.

Since you persistently infer that if a person wants to rely on any fact presented by a writer he/she must agree with that writer's theory, state clearly whether you agree with Pulevski's or Misirkov's theory of the origins of the Macedonian nation or ethnicity. You can't have it both ways.

Why don't I have to agree with either or? Each defined their being Macedonian accordingly. Language, customs, and culture.

What school of thought is it that led you to replace the "ov" from my surname with an "off"? What language is it that you are using?

Just playing your game. You attack me so I'll alter your name.

Have you ever been an MPO member, supporter or symapthizer?

Nope.

Stop this silly practice of purporting to answer questions by pasting passages from books that do not directly address the specific question. Any dullard can do that.

Then any dullard can see what Pribichevich is really saying.

[TrueMacedonian]

But you are missing something very important TM, and that's the transition from pre-Christianity legacy incorporated in the Christian character of Macedonians.

The Christianity is simply modified form of the "ancient" culture, religions, philosophy, symbolism... etc.

Not forgeting that the "Ancient" period lasted till the end of the 5th Century AD, the historical period before the "Middle ages".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history

So, we can freely say the Christianity is also part of our ancient history, if we chosed to hold onto such deffinitions of the past.

To prevent from falling into "Christian" variants, you must first delete the knowledge of Christianity known from the Christian point of view and see things from the Pagan perspective.

Here:
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...5603#post65603

Bratot Christianity has indeed borrowed some pagan attributes. But there are still many differences between paganism and Christianity.

As for antiquity and when I use this word and when it ended I do mean before Christianity entered Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Every period has 'borrowed' some amount of the earlier period, if you decide to draw an lineage of one civilisation/nation you cannot simply separate that shading of the traditions, one into another and ignore the significant impurities from the pre-Christian era which constitute not only a 'borrows' but a primary base for the later.

What is older, the egg or the chicken..?

"Christianity" entered Macedonia before it was known as Christianity. It was already there.

[Risto the Great]

My conclusions in relation to this topic so far is that there seems to be a sort of fear of questioning ourselves for our own benefit of better understanding. Although some members like Bratot and SoM have answered and are willing to go even further with this is what will sustain this discussion. Simple answers like "I just feel we are related to the ancient Macedonians" is not good enough. Grks feel like they are the descendents of the ancient Hellenes. And we all know that's BS. All I am asking for is evidence and to ask more questions for better understanding.

I don't have a fear. I have a belief that it is a futile exercise largely because our knowledge of history is far from perfect and always subject to interpretation. Why do you feel compelled to apply such rigorous testing against the Macedonian nationality that nobody else applies to their own identity? Forget about the Greeks with their limited connections, apply the same tests to any race and see what you come up with.

Don't underestimate how one "feels" by the way, if enough people "feel" a certain way, then it is real in my opinion.

You have stated the following:

The nation has existed since antiquity with a few breaks in between. Ethnicity has evolved for millenias. However there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when. Unless you have the answer for us?

If Daskalot or someone finds a document online that defies one of your "breaks in between", you will have to re-assess that statement. Instead of merely identifying that almost all modern nations have had periods of great external influence.

You have answered your own quest when you identify there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when the ethnicity became cognisant with what we understand as Macedonian now.

Perhaps it is worth the exercise for us to pick a (different) modern nation and see what we can decipher from their past in order to determine a connection. I like the Englishman example. They spoke many different languages and they had bad teeth. Hmmm, nothing has changed at all.

Seriously, I think your issue is more a definitional one relating to "nationalism" than it is with the Macedonian nation. But have no real idea where you are going with it. If you want to prove we danced around in circles and worshiped the Sun God, so be it. I don't see how it will help connect us to the ancient Macedonians anymore than a couple of people hanging around Stonehenge in funny robes connects them to Olde England nowadays.

[Vangelovski]

TM,

If this is your response to Aleksandrov's question, then I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do here:

What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?

Macedonians.

What is it exactly you are trying to determine??? On the one hand, you have just stated that our Christian ancestors were Macedonian - meaning the ancient Macedonians - and on the other you claim we have not link to the ancient Macedonians. What exactly is your point?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have a belief that it is a futile exercise largely because our knowledge of history is far from perfect and always subject to interpretation. Why do you feel compelled to apply such rigorous testing against the Macedonian nationality that nobody else applies to their own identity?

Personally speaking, I don't feel compelled and I certainly don't consider it a test of my own nationality, I just consider it an interesting subject that is worthy of further exploration, despite our inperfect understandings of certain elements in history. Perhaps I find the possible or probable origins of our cultural characters a fascinating topic and one that is worth documenting, I don't see the harm in such an exercise as it may contribute to greater understanding.

If you want to prove we danced around in circles and worshiped the Sun God, so be it. I don't see how it will help connect us to the ancient Macedonians anymore than a couple of people hanging around Stonehenge in funny robes connects them to Olde England nowadays.

If Macedonians had ceased to practice dancing in such a manner for centuries, I would be inclined to agree with your stonehenge analogy. However, Macedonians still practice it, and irrespective of when and where it evolved, if there is reasonable evidence to suggest a possible or probable scenario in which the populations of Macedonia and other Balkans regions have 'danced around in circles' since ancient times, it deserves a mention. I don't see anybody suggesting or pointing to people dancing in funny robes today as evidence of a connection to antiquity.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It is unjust and inequitable for ethnic Macedonians to constantly be placed in a position where their ethnic origin is questioned or disputed in a manner or to a degree that the origin of other ethnic groups is not. The tendency of too many Macedonians to allow themselves to be put in that position is a sign of insecurity, which we must eliminate if we are to reach a reasonable level of self-respect and self-empowerment.

I would probably have taken a different approach to the line of questioning used by TM, but I don't consider this an exercise where Macedonian origins are being disputed. I see nothing wrong in a critical discussion regarding what is possible and probable concerning Macedonian origins, if the purpose is to try and obtain greater clarity.

[aleksandrov]

"What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?"

Macedonians.

What was it that made your ancestors Macedonian Christians, as opposed to Christians of some other ethnicity? Where did they get their Macedonian ethnicity? Did Jesus or Paul give it to them? What are the 'elements' that constituted their Macedonian ethnicity?

The nation has existed since antiquity with a few breaks in between.

The 'nation'? Please define what you mean by 'nation' here, by reference to one of the books on nationalism you've allegedly read. Please apply your definition to each of the periods in which you believe the Macedonian nation has existed between antiquity and now.

And what are these breaks you speak of? What do you mean by 'breaks'? What happened during those 'breaks'? How do you connect the periods on either side of each 'break'?

Ethnicity has evolved for millenias.

What is the earliest point in the evolution of the Macedonian 'ethnicity' that you KNOW OF?

However there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when.

And who suggested that there is or should be an "accurate way of pinning down specifically when"?

You are the one disputing that the Macedonian ethnicity is indigenous to Macedonia and challenging people to provide specific evidence of it, so you must have at least a rough idea of the earliest KNOWN roots of the Macedonian ethnicity or culture as you perceive them. If you don't, this would be about the right time to quit the baseless and illogical questioning and trivialization of the indigenous Macedonian ethnicity or culture, along with the pitiful red herring and circular arguments you have resorted to as your vacuousness has unravelled. Think about coming back when you have done your homework.

It's one of the rare few cultural aspects that was carried down from antiquity. It can be found in Macedonian Churches and in religious paintings.

How was it carried down? What makes it 'rare' and who made you an authority on the specifics of Macedonian culture and what aspects of it have been carried down from what points in our history?

How did it end up in Macedonian churches and in religious paintings? On what basis have you suggested that there was a cultural or ethnic discontinuity between our pre-Christian and Christian ancestors?

Where is your EVIDENCE?

It's a symbol that Macedonians wanted to represent their nation after the break-up of Yugoslavia.

Why did Macedonians want that symbol to represent their nation? Did all 'Macedonians' want it? Were there any Muslims, agnostics or atheists among those who pushed for its adoption and those who have resisted its abolition by successive governments of the Republic of Macedonia? Does the Macedonian Orthodox Church - Ohrid Archdiocese use that symbol? If not, how many Christian organizations do you know that use it as an ethnic or national symbol, as distinct from just another one of the many images in the old or reproduced artworks they display?

It's a symbol and flag I prefer over the 8-ray flag.

Why do you prefer it over the 8-ray flag?

Why don't I have to agree with either or? Each defined their being Macedonian accordingly. Language, customs, and culture.

"Accordingly"? According to what?

What were the distinctly Macedonian characteristics and ethnic or national roots or history of that language, those customs and that culture according to Pulevski?

What were the distinctly Macedonian characteristics and ethnic or national roots or history of that language, those customs and that culture according to Misirkov?

Just playing your game. You attack me so I'll alter your name.

That was very clever.

Why did you choose to replace the "ov" in my surname with an "off" as the appropriate way to alter my name? What exactly does that particular choice mean to you? Why did you think that I would be personally insulted by it? In fact, I welcome you letting your guard down like that.

Then any dullard can see what Pribichevich is really saying.

Well, before I ask all the other dullards, I ask you in particular, what is Pribichevich "really saying" that supports your claim that Indigen or I have tried to dupe people about him? Why have you repeatedly failed to CITE what it is that I've attributed to Pribichevich that is false?