Originally posted by TrueMacedonian
View Post
Macedonian Nationalism
Collapse
X
-
-
-
TM,
Stop snaking around the fundamentals and insulting our intelligence with your laughable pretense of having the intellectual capacity to judge ANYBODY'S education, knowledge or analytical ability.
Try to be man enough to state directly and clearly what you stand for.
What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?
What point in history do you claim that the evolution of the Macedonian ethnicity and/or nation starts from?
Why do you consider the Sun in your avatar to be a Macedonian symbol? Does it originate from your Christian forebears or the 'pagans' of an allegedly discontinued era?
Since you persistently infer that if a person wants to rely on any fact presented by a writer he/she must agree with that writer's theory, state clearly whether you agree with Pulevski's or Misirkov's theory of the origins of the Macedonian nation or ethnicity. You can't have it both ways.
What school of thought is it that led you to replace the "ov" from my surname with an "off"? What language is it that you are using?
Have you ever been an MPO member, supporter or symapthizer?
Stop this silly practice of purporting to answer questions by pasting passages from books that do not directly address the specific question. Any dullard can do that.Last edited by aleksandrov; 08-01-2010, 02:06 PM.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostTM, I am not sure what to make of this.
Here is what your answer was about being descended from Bulgarians:I think I know what you mean. I think anything familiar about Bulgarians is actually Macedonian.
Do you have to stand for anything in relation to this? It could be argued that any pagan rituals that preceded Christianity may well be the unique factors everyone is trying to talk about here. I suspect if Macedonia became a muslim country, using your logic, you may well stand for the Islam era and the enlightened muslim whoever who wrote such important muslim whatevers. I simply don't know how any one period can be embraced in isolation.
Maybe I need to re-read this thread. But what are your conclusions in relation to this thread topic TM?
Risto my personal opinion regarding our Christian past is due to the fact that I can see the evidence of this cultural legacy. I don't doubt that there are very few things that have come from antiquity that is practiced today in Macedonia and amongst Macedonians (as SoM has pointed out). I appreciate the ancient history of Macedonia like I do all facets and eras of Macedonian history. But I feel the majority of Macedonians today celebrate more of a cultural connection with the Macedonians who helped Paul spread Christianity and build churches.
My conclusions in relation to this topic so far is that there seems to be a sort of fear of questioning ourselves for our own benefit of better understanding. Although some members like Bratot and SoM have answered and are willing to go even further with this is what will sustain this discussion. Simple answers like "I just feel we are related to the ancient Macedonians" is not good enough. Grks feel like they are the descendents of the ancient Hellenes. And we all know that's BS. All I am asking for is evidence and to ask more questions for better understanding.Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Phoenix View PostI wonder how much of our pagan past can be found in our culture today, I would imagine it would make interesting reading and study...to place all of our eggs in the religious basket would be to dilute our rich culture and the very evolution of religion itself...i don't think you can have one (religion) without the acknowledgement of the other (paganism)...Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by iskra View PostI agree Phoenix, if you want to be honest about history you need to try to be inclusive and avoid attempting to hide elements you find distasteful. Though I don't think TM is trying to hide anything, I think he is just saying that on a personal level, he feels closer to this rather than that and I don't think he is suggesting that everyone else has to feel the same way.
From what I have read of this thread, it certainly is not the time for TM or anybody else to be drawing any major conclusions.What this thread has done, is raise some interesting questions that need to be discussed systematically under a variety of headings and probably the best place to do that would be in the history section. There is no need for animosity or for people to try to create taboos about words like "Slav". True historical discussions cannot undermine the existence of any nation. If a nation exists, then it is already historically justified. The rest is just about the ride. We should not confuse the writings of Greeks on Macedonia with historical writing. The writings of Greek historians on Macedonia, mostly do not qualify as historical. Their writing is just mostly political propaganda designed to serve truly nasty ends.Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Pelister View PostThat is a question I would expect a UMD activist to ask. There is a line of people ready to revise our identity and revise our history for us. You should realise by now that our claims to be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians is not a 'rule' that someone made up. It isn't the latest fad. It is not something that just happen to come along, nor is it the product of 19th and 20th century nationalism, although I will concede there is an association there. I am saying we have always known that we were the descendants of the ancient Macedonians, its in our folklore, TM. The trouble being stirred up by UMD activists that we are not the descendants of the ancient Macedonians has been influencing interpretations for some time now, and we are beginning to see an emerging section of the diaspora telling the rest of us that our belief system is wrong. Our customs don't stretch back to the time of Filip and the ancient Macedonian Kings, they stretch back much further than that. What is significant in my view is that they are local.
As for our customs stretching back before the times of Filip and Alexander can you please provide the evidence so we can discuss this in further detail?Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostTh
Risto my personal opinion regarding our Christian past is due to the fact that I can see the evidence of this cultural legacy. I don't doubt that there are very few things that have come from antiquity that is practiced today in Macedonia and amongst Macedonians (as SoM has pointed out). I appreciate the ancient history of Macedonia like I do all facets and eras of Macedonian history. But I feel the majority of Macedonians today celebrate more of a cultural connection with the Macedonians who helped Paul spread Christianity and build churches.
The Christianity is simply modified form of the "ancient" culture, religions, philosophy, symbolism... etc.
Not forgeting that the "Ancient" period lasted till the end of the 5th Century AD, the historical period before the "Middle ages".
So, we can freely say the Christianity is also part of our ancient history, if we chosed to hold onto such deffinitions of the past.
To prevent from falling into "Christian" variants, you must first delete the knowledge of Christianity known from the Christian point of view and see things from the Pagan perspective.
Here:
The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot
Comment
-
-
TM,
Stop snaking around the fundamentals and insulting our intelligence with your laughable pretense of having the intellectual capacity to judge ANYBODY'S education, knowledge or analytical ability.
Try to be man enough to state directly and clearly what you stand for.
What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?
What point in history do you claim that the evolution of the Macedonian ethnicity and/or nation starts from?
Why do you consider the Sun in your avatar to be a Macedonian symbol? Does it originate from your Christian forebears or the 'pagans' of an allegedly discontinued era?
Since you persistently infer that if a person wants to rely on any fact presented by a writer he/she must agree with that writer's theory, state clearly whether you agree with Pulevski's or Misirkov's theory of the origins of the Macedonian nation or ethnicity. You can't have it both ways.
What school of thought is it that led you to replace the "ov" from my surname with an "off"? What language is it that you are using?
Have you ever been an MPO member, supporter or symapthizer?
Stop this silly practice of purporting to answer questions by pasting passages from books that do not directly address the specific question. Any dullard can do that.Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Bratot View PostBut you are missing something very important TM, and that's the transition from pre-Christianity legacy incorporated in the Christian character of Macedonians.
The Christianity is simply modified form of the "ancient" culture, religions, philosophy, symbolism... etc.
Not forgeting that the "Ancient" period lasted till the end of the 5th Century AD, the historical period before the "Middle ages".
So, we can freely say the Christianity is also part of our ancient history, if we chosed to hold onto such deffinitions of the past.
To prevent from falling into "Christian" variants, you must first delete the knowledge of Christianity known from the Christian point of view and see things from the Pagan perspective.
Here:
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...5603#post65603
As for antiquity and when I use this word and when it ended I do mean before Christianity entered Macedonia.Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
Comment
-
-
Every period has 'borrowed' some amount of the earlier period, if you decide to draw an lineage of one civilisation/nation you cannot simply separate that shading of the traditions, one into another and ignore the significant impurities from the pre-Christian era which constitute not only a 'borrows' but a primary base for the later.
What is older, the egg or the chicken..?
"Christianity" entered Macedonia before it was known as Christianity. It was already there.The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostMy conclusions in relation to this topic so far is that there seems to be a sort of fear of questioning ourselves for our own benefit of better understanding. Although some members like Bratot and SoM have answered and are willing to go even further with this is what will sustain this discussion. Simple answers like "I just feel we are related to the ancient Macedonians" is not good enough. Grks feel like they are the descendents of the ancient Hellenes. And we all know that's BS. All I am asking for is evidence and to ask more questions for better understanding.
Don't underestimate how one "feels" by the way, if enough people "feel" a certain way, then it is real in my opinion.
You have stated the following:Originally posted by True MacedonianThe nation has existed since antiquity with a few breaks in between. Ethnicity has evolved for millenias. However there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when. Unless you have the answer for us?
You have answered your own quest when you identify there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when the ethnicity became cognisant with what we understand as Macedonian now.
Perhaps it is worth the exercise for us to pick a (different) modern nation and see what we can decipher from their past in order to determine a connection. I like the Englishman example. They spoke many different languages and they had bad teeth. Hmmm, nothing has changed at all.
Seriously, I think your issue is more a definitional one relating to "nationalism" than it is with the Macedonian nation. But have no real idea where you are going with it. If you want to prove we danced around in circles and worshiped the Sun God, so be it. I don't see how it will help connect us to the ancient Macedonians anymore than a couple of people hanging around Stonehenge in funny robes connects them to Olde England nowadays.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
Comment
-
-
TM,
If this is your response to Aleksandrov's question, then I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do here:
What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Risto the GreatI have a belief that it is a futile exercise largely because our knowledge of history is far from perfect and always subject to interpretation. Why do you feel compelled to apply such rigorous testing against the Macedonian nationality that nobody else applies to their own identity?
If you want to prove we danced around in circles and worshiped the Sun God, so be it. I don't see how it will help connect us to the ancient Macedonians anymore than a couple of people hanging around Stonehenge in funny robes connects them to Olde England nowadays.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by AleksandrovIt is unjust and inequitable for ethnic Macedonians to constantly be placed in a position where their ethnic origin is questioned or disputed in a manner or to a degree that the origin of other ethnic groups is not. The tendency of too many Macedonians to allow themselves to be put in that position is a sign of insecurity, which we must eliminate if we are to reach a reasonable level of self-respect and self-empowerment.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
"What is the ethnicity of the Christian ancestors that you consider the Macedonians to have earliest known links to? Hebrew, Roman, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek?"
Macedonians.
The nation has existed since antiquity with a few breaks in between.
And what are these breaks you speak of? What do you mean by 'breaks'? What happened during those 'breaks'? How do you connect the periods on either side of each 'break'?
Ethnicity has evolved for millenias.
However there is no way of accurately pinning down specifically when.
You are the one disputing that the Macedonian ethnicity is indigenous to Macedonia and challenging people to provide specific evidence of it, so you must have at least a rough idea of the earliest KNOWN roots of the Macedonian ethnicity or culture as you perceive them. If you don't, this would be about the right time to quit the baseless and illogical questioning and trivialization of the indigenous Macedonian ethnicity or culture, along with the pitiful red herring and circular arguments you have resorted to as your vacuousness has unravelled. Think about coming back when you have done your homework.
It's one of the rare few cultural aspects that was carried down from antiquity. It can be found in Macedonian Churches and in religious paintings.
How did it end up in Macedonian churches and in religious paintings? On what basis have you suggested that there was a cultural or ethnic discontinuity between our pre-Christian and Christian ancestors?
Where is your EVIDENCE?
It's a symbol that Macedonians wanted to represent their nation after the break-up of Yugoslavia.
It's a symbol and flag I prefer over the 8-ray flag.
Why don't I have to agree with either or? Each defined their being Macedonian accordingly. Language, customs, and culture.
What were the distinctly Macedonian characteristics and ethnic or national roots or history of that language, those customs and that culture according to Pulevski?
What were the distinctly Macedonian characteristics and ethnic or national roots or history of that language, those customs and that culture according to Misirkov?
Just playing your game. You attack me so I'll alter your name.
Why did you choose to replace the "ov" in my surname with an "off" as the appropriate way to alter my name? What exactly does that particular choice mean to you? Why did you think that I would be personally insulted by it? In fact, I welcome you letting your guard down like that.
Then any dullard can see what Pribichevich is really saying.Last edited by aleksandrov; 08-01-2010, 10:24 PM.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
Comment
-
Comment