Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Buktop]

Pick one, then run with it mate.

Tell me what you are referring to so I can actually make a comment, I don't quite understand what you are asking me.

Buktop, you should specify which definition of nation you mean - you had quite a few which would not be accepted by anyone.

If you missed it, I already quoted your definition and my definition, compared them, and they are almost identical. I took the time to read your worthless post and replied to it, now you go find what I am talking about.

[Mikail]

Please show me where I stated that the first instance of the Macedonian State was founded in 1944... Please find this quote because I can't seem to.

It is obvious, whether you claim to have followed this argument from the beginning or not, that you don't really understand what is being argued.

my goodness? Buktop, you have come out with a lot of bla, bla's here in this thread. Can I go back and show you where you said what?? And you reckon I haven't been following the thread?

Correction, you maintain wholeheartedly I haven't been following the thread as it suits your claim.

I'll wait for you to acknowledge in 40 pages time that I have indeed followed the thread. I say 40 pages as this is how long it takes you to come full circle.

[Risto the Great]

Tell me what you are referring to so I can actually make a comment, I don't quite understand what you are asking me.

Really? You asked me which definition, I said pick one and then tell me how it applies to the Balkans and further afar. What is so hard about this?

[Buktop]

my goodness? Buktop, you have come out with a lot of bla, bla's here in this thread. Can I go back and show you where you said what?? And you reckon I haven't been following the thread?

Correction, you maintain wholeheartedly I haven't been following the thread as it suits your claim.

I'll wait for you to acknowledge in 40 pages time that I have indeed followed the thread. I say 40 pages as this is how long it takes you to come full circle.

Mikail this is what you said to me

In your first posts you stood your ground in stating the very first Macedonian state was founded in 1944

Then you allege that I have "Shifted" my position.

I am asking you to please quote for me where I said the first instance of a Macedonian "State" was in 1944. Then I want you to substantiate your claim where I have shifted my position.

If you can't do that, then don't make claims you cannot substantiate.

[Vangelovski]

If you missed it, I already quoted your definition and my definition, compared them, and they are almost identical. I took the time to read your worthless post and replied to it, now you go find what I am talking about.

And the merry-go-round keeps turning...

[Buktop]

Really? You asked me which definition, I said pick one and then tell me how it applies to the Balkans and further afar. What is so hard about this?

You asked me this

Buktop, can you think of any other nations in the Balkans which did not exist under your definition in a similar manner? How about worldwide?

Then I asked you which definition you are implying and what time period.

Based on what has been discussed, at one point or another no Nations existed as we know them today. The predominant criteria of association in the past was clearly religion. This clearly explains the divisions experienced by Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. What divides them, they share a very similar language, they share a very similar culture, they share very similar genetics. What differs is their subjugation under separate empires which affected their religious affiliation.

What distinguished modern French with modern Germans? Ancient Gauls were Germanic, ancient Germans were Germanic, Ancient Britons were Germanic, stemming from similar genes, culture, customs and language, what separated them in modern terms? How did each nation come about? What distinguished one from another? Especially considering that they were so similar in ancient context?

Macedonian National awakening is no different than any other National awakening, I cannot tell you exactly when it took place, all I can tell you is that an Identity had to have existed in order for it to occur.

So to answer your question, under the definition that I and Vangelovski use, all Nations follow the same criteria, and no one National awakening is more significant than the other. They all follow the same criteria and all came into existence as a result of unity.

Here are the definitions again as presented by Vangelovski and myself.

A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language

Thats one definition of a nation. There are many definitions, some objective, some subjective, some with a combination of both markers. The real problem with the definitions of a nation (unlike the definitions of a state) is that it can be such a complex area that no one definition covers all examples of nations we have.

Until recently, one of my personal favourite definitions was:

A body of individuals who claim to be united by some set of characteristics that differentiate them from outsiders, who either strive to create or to maintain their own state.

I don't really know what you are asking me, are you asking whether I believe only the Macedonian Nation didn't exist? Are you asking whether all Nations followed the same criteria? Or are you asking me to find you examples of similar instances of National Awakening in comparison to that of Macedonia?

[Mikail]

ring a-ring a-rosie.......

[Buktop]

ring a-ring a-rosie.......

my goodness? Buktop, you have come out with a lot of bla, bla's here in this thread. Can I go back and show you where you said what?? And you reckon I haven't been following the thread?

Correction, you maintain wholeheartedly I haven't been following the thread as it suits your claim.

I'll wait for you to acknowledge in 40 pages time that I have indeed followed the thread. I say 40 pages as this is how long it takes you to come full circle.

Mikail this is what you said to me

In your first posts you stood your ground in stating the very first Macedonian state was founded in 1944

Then you allege that I have "Shifted" my position.

I am asking you to please quote for me where I said the first instance of a Macedonian "State" was in 1944. Then I want you to substantiate your claim where I have shifted my position.

If you can't do that, then don't make claims you cannot substantiate.

Waiting...

[Buktop]

And the merry-go-round keeps turning...

So even though I have read several of the sources which you posted, you refuse to read mine? That's fine, I actually expected you to make some sort of useless comment, rather than saying anything worthwhile for a change.

[Mikail]

Mikail this is what you said to me

Then you allege that I have "Shifted" my position.

I am asking you to please quote for me where I said the first instance of a Macedonian "State" was in 1944. Then I want you to substantiate your claim where I have shifted my position.

If you can't do that, then don't make claims you cannot substantiate.

Mikail this is what you said to me

Then you allege that I have "Shifted" my position.

I am asking you to please quote for me where I said the first instance of a Macedonian "State" was in 1944. Then I want you to substantiate your claim where I have shifted my position.

If you can't do that, then don't make claims you cannot substantiate.

Waiting...

Gospodine Buktop, I don't have the time, nor do I have the inclination to go trowling through all your posts to point out all your varying differences on what constitutes a state and your lack of acknowledging 1944 was not the first time a Macedonian state existed.

Vangelovski did that already and he is to be commended for it.

[Bill77]

Gospodine Buktop, I don't have the time, nor do I have the inclination to go trowling through all your posts to point out all your varying differences on what constitutes a state and your lack of acknowledging 1944 was not the first time a Macedonian state existed.

Vangelovski did that already and he is to be commended for it.

just to see it again for no other reason than its a classic.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=47451&postcount=336

[Buktop]

Gospodine Buktop, I don't have the time, nor do I have the inclination to go trowling through all your posts to point out all your varying differences on what constitutes a state and your lack of acknowledging 1944 was not the first time a Macedonian state existed.

Vangelovski did that already and he is to be commended for it.

Mhm, well according to you, my first posts were asserting my position that the FIRST Macedonian State was founded in 1944, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to locate where I said that should it?

If you bothered to read my response to Vangelovski's post, or my ACTUAL posts which Vangelovski referenced, you would see that he was quoting completely unrelated comments, in different contexts. That is why I took the time to respond to such an idiotically long post, but seeing as how everyone loved Vangelovski's post so much, and didn't even bother to actually read the thread, I guess I am just talking to myself here.

Don't make claims you can't back up, if you cannot provide me evidence of what you claim, don't bother making the claim Mikail.

[Buktop]

just to see it again for no other reason than its a classic.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...&postcount=336

Another one of Vangelovski's stooges...

[Mikail]

Spolaj Ti Buktop.

[Buktop]

Spolaj Ti Buktop.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=47816#post47816