Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Buktop]

Buktop,

Thanks for contributing to your list of incoherent posts. I'm sure we'll have the opportunity to read many more.

Well perhaps if you would answer my questions, or perhaps even provide us with a quote or two from some sources we could put this issue to bed. But that is too much to ask of you, that would be deviating from your nature and we can't have that...

[Buktop]

Buktop
I found that last post an entire waste of time, however so as to extract something useful I would ask that you stop your continued personal attacks on Vangelovski - I'm not here to defend him, he can obviously do that on his own. This is the Macedonian Truth Forum and what people expect here is the truth about Macedonia and Macedonians in accordance with the "Macedonian Cause" as detailed in the specific thread dedicated to the cause. Whilst healthy debate and expression of opinions is encouraged, the attempts at discrediting members here I find abhorrent, unless it is done in line with the cause, not on a personal basis or in an attempt to uphold the ideaology of another organisation. You may find this biased, but let me tell you that after all the websites I have visited and all the forums I have read and all the bullshit coming from Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians and all the other so called:- experts/specialists/historians/archaeologists/linguistic/social/economic gurus who have been very willing to determine who we are, what we are and where we came from, I find this website the least biased, most relevant and most tolerant of all sites I have visited. This is our site, the site of Macedonians seeking the truth, so any unwarranted attacks or unsubstantiated claims against it or it's members deserves to be treated with the same contempt that is dished out from racist sites.

You find my responses a waste of time, yet Vangelovski's crude and baseless analysis of my posts relevant?

If you look throughout my posts in this thread I have not personally attacked Vangelovski more than 5 times, every post Vangelovski makes in response to mine includes attacks on my intelligence, my blind devotion to UMD or me being an amateur/charlatan. Vangelovski and I have a history of argument that dates back nearly 2 years and it has yet to be resolved.

I am not arguing for UMD, in fact, throughout this thread I have repeatedly avoided discussing UMD whereas Vangelovski has tried to bring them up in nearly every post. I am done discussing UMD arguments here, my discussion in this thread deals with my personal knowledge of the founding of the modern Macedonian state, and my disagreement with Vangelovski's opinion on the matter.

I have yet to attack the MTO, in fact, I completely agree with you. The MTO is by far one of the best forums I have visited, so much information, so many viewpoints, one cannot help but love the freedom and knowledge that are a cornerstone of this forum.

My only problem is with some of the members. I don't feel that I should be hated for supporting UMD, and I don't feel that UMD should be brought up every time I post. When I post on an issue not even relevant to a UMD topic, I am berated. At this point I could care less, but I feel that my opinion should not affect my overall credibility on every subject.

I will continue to post what I feel is right, as politely as possible, but I have to admit, there is a breaking point. Well that's my 2 cents anyway, you may think I am just a drone or some ignorant fool, but this is what I feel.

[Soldier of Macedon]

They did not view themselves as a Macedonian Nation under the Byzantines, individuals identified as Macedonians, but associated with christians.

So you're saying that individuals identified as Macedonians but they did not associate with each other in any form, as kinsmen of the same nation. How did you come to that wonderful conclusion?

[Rogi]

aman bre kakvi gluposti se tresat na temava. znaci, bile Makedonci, znaele se Makedonci, no sepak ne bile Makedonci i ne se znaele kako Makedonci megju sebe.

Ne si so site.

[Vangelovski]

aman bre kakvi gluposti se tresat na temava. znaci, bile Makedonci, znaele se Makedonci, no sepak ne bile Makedonci i ne se znaele kako Makedonci megju sebe.

Ne si so site.

This is where Buktop will ask you to show him where the contradiction is....

[Buktop]

So you're saying that individuals identified as Macedonians but they did not associate with each other in any form, as kinsmen of the same nation. How did you come to that wonderful conclusion?

Individuals knew they were Macedonian, yes, but under Vangelovski's definition of Nation

A body of individuals who claim to be united by some set of characteristics that differentiate them from outsiders, who either strive to create or to maintain their own state.

They associated more with Christians, and did not have a sense of unity with other Macedonians, they did not work together and exclude other christians in the Byzantine empire.

aman bre kakvi gluposti se tresat na temava. znaci, bile Makedonci, znaele se Makedonci, no sepak ne bile Makedonci i ne se znaele kako Makedonci megju sebe.

Ne si so site.

Aj kazi mi sho prajale tie vo toe vreme? Imame knigi sho pishat deka bile Makedonci, ama nikogash ne rabotale zaedno za da prajet Makedonski Nacin.

[Mikail]

So you maintain your belief that your Tato Tito created the very first Macedonian nation.

[Buktop]

So you maintain your belief that your Tato Tito created the very first Macedonian nation.

Please make an effort to read this thread before you make stupid assertions here, and what is your obsession with Tito? Where have I even mentioned Tito?

Just one more person who would rather ignore substance and draw baseless conclusions about nothing.

[Mikail]

I don't have an obsession with Tito nor have you mentioned him, yet you uphold the turn of events which occurred against Macedonians in 1944 and your argument supports Greeces claims Tito created us.

We are Macedonian and we were there prior to 1944. Macedonia was the first Kingdom in European History, Macedonia maintained its identity throughout history.

So enough is enough.

[julie]

Buktop, citing references as you state quote Aj kazi mi sho prajale tie vo toe vreme? Imame knigi sho pishat deka bile Makedonci, ama nikogash ne rabotale zaedno za da prajet Makedonski Nacin

is shameful. I agree with Mikail's point, that you seem to require written proof and evidence , which is in support of Tito's wonderful newly created Macedonian people - a notion taken from UMD, and I dknow you dont like the inference to them, however, most people are tired of the personal attacks on members of the forum that do not support your theories
It would be a lot more diplomatic of you to perhaps stop attacking individuals for not agreeing with you.
shto e ova neshto, glupostvi, ne trba vaka da se pogazhish protiv Makedontsi tuka shto se borame za nashite pravi i lichnoti ime Makedonsko, se sitat grtsite i bugarite is serbite so tebe, shlukavat ratse.
Makedontsi sme, so ilyadi godini, krv Makedonski ima techeno za nashiot narod, a ti tuka samo pokazhuvash raboti shto ne e vazhno.
Nemoy, dosta ne zafakuvay drugi tuka, ima drugi foremi shto mozhish da pravish taka, ne tuka, te molam

[Buktop]

I don't have an obsession with Tito nor have you mentioned him, yet you uphold the turn of events which occurred against Macedonians in 1944 and your argument supports Greeces claims Tito created us.

We are Macedonian and we were there prior to 1944. Macedonia was the first Kingdom in European History, Macedonia maintained its identity throughout history.

So enough is enough.

Please go back and read this thread from the beginning, I repeatedly stated that Macedonians under the ASNOM organization SELF-DECLARED independence, Tito had nothing to do with it.

Just because idiot Greeks associate the founding of a State with the founding of an identity doesn't mean that you need to lower your arguments to their level.

Once again, reread this thread before making assumptions about what I am writing.

[Buktop]

Buktop, citing references as you state quote Aj kazi mi sho prajale tie vo toe vreme? Imame knigi sho pishat deka bile Makedonci, ama nikogash ne rabotale zaedno za da prajet Makedonski Nacin

is shameful. I agree with Mikail's point, that you seem to require written proof and evidence , which is in support of Tito's wonderful newly created Macedonian people - a notion taken from UMD, and I dknow you dont like the inference to them, however, most people are tired of the personal attacks on members of the forum that do not support your theories
It would be a lot more diplomatic of you to perhaps stop attacking individuals for not agreeing with you.
shto e ova neshto, glupostvi, ne trba vaka da se pogazhish protiv Makedontsi tuka shto se borame za nashite pravi i lichnoti ime Makedonsko, se sitat grtsite i bugarite is serbite so tebe, shlukavat ratse.
Makedontsi sme, so ilyadi godini, krv Makedonski ima techeno za nashiot narod, a ti tuka samo pokazhuvash raboti shto ne e vazhno.
Nemoy, dosta ne zafakuvay drugi tuka, ima drugi foremi shto mozhish da pravish taka, ne tuka, te molam

Julie, when I have people coming and saying I am a charlatan, I am a UMD stooge, I am a tosser, I am an amateur, etc... I have every right to fight back, especially when everyone seems to want to comment on my intentions in this thread without even bothering to read anything I write. I am tired of being polite and respectful to people who show neither to me.

Secondly, if you had read my posts you would see that nowhere and noway have I even involved Tito or supported Greek claims that Tito created us, so why people keep bringing this up baffles me.

Thirdly, I said that we have maintained the identity of being Macedonian since antiquity, we have not maintained a State, and we have not maintained a unified Nation, once again, read that post again and quote the top half where I replied to SoM and you should get a better picture of what I am trying to explain.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

This quote that you use at Maknews in your footer:

"We have spilt an ocean of blood for brotherhood and unity of our peoples and we shall not allow anyone to touch or destroy it from within"

Can you tell us who it from? And for the "brotherhood and unity" of which "peoples" do you feel its relevant?

[Buktop]

Buktop,

This quote that you use at Maknews in your footer:

"We have spilt an ocean of blood for brotherhood and unity of our peoples and we shall not allow anyone to touch or destroy it from within"

Can you tell us who it from? And for the "brotherhood and unity" of which "peoples" do you feel its relevant?

Can you tell me what relevance this bares on the subject?

It is obviously a quote from Tito, and I felt it applied to the Macedonian people. Irrespective of it's initial context in Yugoslavia, I felt the quote fit perfectly for Macedonians.

As we can see, you have nothing further to share on the subject of the Macedonian State, so you have resorted to attacking my intentions, you never let me down Vangelovski.

[Mikail]

Please go back and read this thread from the beginning, I repeatedly stated that Macedonians under the ASNOM organization SELF-DECLARED independence, Tito had nothing to do with it.

Just because idiot Greeks associate the founding of a State with the founding of an identity doesn't mean that you need to lower your arguments to their level.

Once again, reread this thread before making assumptions about what I am writing.

It's obvious Buktop I a many others have been reading this thread from the beginning. So you can stop the sarcasm brat!

The majority does not agree with your stand. So step down from your ivory tower before it crumbles.

All your posts have a common theme and one can only make assumptions by what you write as you wholeheartedly maintain your position. A position which sits in the Greek & Bulgarian camp.