Originally posted by Voltron
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18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors
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it has a lot to do with the ethnic cosciousness as you can see albanians in the navy expressing themselves in albanian & they have an ethnic albanian consciousness.ONe can say that the albanian roots are still there.Also you have the vlach consciousness that they are conscious of their language traditions even though the greek gov tried to erradicate their ethnic consciousness is still there.Look at the macedonian afflictions being prevented from speaking the macedonian idiom & to be free to speak & express in the macedonian mother tounge.Many times the greeks tried to erradicate any macedonian cosciousness by telling & forcing people to identify as greeks.But despite this the conciosness of the ethnic minorities cannot be toally erradicated.The macedonians of rom are genetically connected to the ancient macedonians as tests have proven.The fact that we are and feel as macedonians should be enough to tell the world we are macedonians.Genetics tell that we are macedonians."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by VoltronMacedonians not being Greek is the myth SOM, not logic.
Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek.
Originally posted by Agamoi ThytaiLaskaris is known as one of the first educated Byzantines who promoted the revival of the term "Hellene" with its ethnic meaning,just make a small google research.It is very clear in what context he used the referrence to Alexander.
Laonikos Chalcocondylis,Byzantine 15th century historian:
"So the Hellenes earned great glory,having demonstrated great and praiseworthy deeds,some of them in Europe and even in Libya (he means probably Africa in general),also reaching even Gagges and Oceanus (the Atlantic) and Caucasus,and in those lands had come before many others and especially Hercules,and even earlier Dionysus,the son of Semele,and afterwards the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians,and after them the king of the Macedonians and those that succeeded him in power,and these events have been remembered and recorded as they have occurred by many other authors.Hellenes accomplished this over a long period of time."
Rigas Feraios,late 18th century:
Page 157. Page 158. Page 159. Source: "The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents" by Richard Clogg, 1976. I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old
Panajiotis Kodrikas' "Study of the Koine (Common) Hellenic dialect",1818
To be honest, that Alexander and the ancient Macedonians would feature in some of the stories and traditions among the peoples that he conquered and/or ruled hardly comes as a suprise. This 'heritage' is akin to an Iranian, Indian or Pakistani claiming a 'heritage' from the Mongols, where there are several parallels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurids http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire Their story is familiar, the Persian language, culture and religion (Islam) spread to the Indian sub-continent as a result of expanding Mongol power led by the Timurids. There are some interesting parallels in the Asian expedition ofIn the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Voltron View PostMango, im not the minority. Im the majority. Where do you think we learned our language from ? Church lessons ? Seriously man.
A better example is the Taliban. They despise the west and look how they live.
Greeks do not despise America, that is a completely false.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by El Bre View PostExactly, so, we can agree that just because you were told that your family has been speaking Greek for a few generations, doesn't necessarily mean that your first ancestor was expelled from the anal cavity of Socrates.
By the way. When did I say Macedonians were ethnically pure? We are the product of all the peoples who have inhabited or passed through the Balkan Pennisula over the past few thousand years.
It's not out of the realm of possibility. Go to any village in western Aegean Macedonia and you'll find people speaking a language today that was completely foreign to their great grandparents. So you can't possibly know.
Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostVoltron, everyone knows the purest form of literal Greek is in the North of Greece. It does not contain dialects because they only recently learned it. If it makes you feel better, apparently some people say it was Zeus who taught them 80 years ago.
Originally posted by mango View PostWhatever you are, minority or majority, you have no choice. In your country it's either being Greek or face state repression. And what language are we speaking about? Romaica?Last edited by Voltron; 08-14-2011, 11:29 AM.
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Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostIt's interesting to note that Kolokotroni the Albanian hero of the greek revolution never once objected to what cochrane said to him concerning your imaginary ancestors (Both Macedonians and Hellenes);
Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostAs for what William Martin Leake described:
Researches in Greece, by William Martin Leake
It seems odd that he equates speaking greek with shopkeepers or artisans i.e. Socio-Labor labels. Another oddity (besides his 19th century narrow minded world view) is how peasants could speak up to three languages in Southern Macedonia. This should make you and your 1 friend with 10 accounts here think twice about what Leake really meant.
As for Abbot;
The Past In Question, By Keith Brown
I wonder how much of these labels you truly understand for this period?
Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostHow about you amuse us with what your 2 giddy friends posted about Boiannes and his supposed speech with Alexander being called a HelleneGo ahead and post the material here.
"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Orfej View PostYou didn't claimed this earlier! To the contrary, you stated:
How can a scholar influence other Greek scholars(as you say) to believe that the Macedonians were not Greeks if he himself is uncertain about the matter?
It seems that the one who's uncertain is you. Maybe you need to clear your thoughts. To help you i will give you a hint.
Originally posted by Orfej View PostOnly after the German Droysen offered his theories to your historians did they accepted to include the Macedonians into the Greek nation.
And what happened? The Greek state and scholars, the ones who quite recently omitted the Ancient Macedonians from the Greek nation now went on a mission to 'prove' how Hellenic they in fact were.
Originally posted by Orfej View PostWell lets for the 'sake of the argument' assume that you didn't took this sentence out of context. In this sentence Korais:
1. Speaks about the successors of Alexander, not about the Ancient Macedonians nor about Alexander nor about his predecessors! Only about his successors who certainly can't be equalized with the Ancient Macedonians themselves.
2. Tells us that the Hellenes were subjugated to the Macedonians.
Do you know what subjugated means?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjugate
Originally posted by Orfej View PostPS: You didn't answered my question! What have these 18th century scholars(predecessors of Korais) which you threw around wrote about the Ancient Macedonians apart from the one liners you are quoting and which is nothing more then propaganda for the ignorant. Weren't the Ancient Macedonians such an important part of your nation? Weren't they the ones who spread Hellenic culture all around the world? Isn't it shameful that one liners is everything that the Greek intelligentsia(including the ones that allegedly considered Macedonians as Greeks) wrote about them before Droysen come up in the 1850es and told them '' hey guys, these Macedonians are very important for your new identity, you need to include them in your history'' ?"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Epirot View PostWhat does prove this? That Greeks are the offspring of Macedonians!!!!
Originally posted by Epirot View PostDo not be ridiculous since nobody gives credit to a XIX century 'Greek' scholar, who was heavily influenced by Romanticism.
Originally posted by Epirot View PostI just underlined some words from your quote, to show how inaccurate is D. Pyrrhos. According to his wishful thinking, the ancestors of Turks were defeated by Alexander's army. There is no historical record that Alexander met ever Turks (or their ancestors) during his Asiatic expedition. Therefore, D. Pyrrhos constructed the past as to suit to his agenda of reviving the non-existent Hellas
Originally posted by Epirot View PostIt seem obvious that you picked up this sentence out of its content. It says nothing whether Macedonians were Greeks or not. It just emphasize the very fact that πρώτοι κάτοικοι of Macedonia were the same with those of Greece, probably a reference to Pelasgi. I have no issue to accept that the first inhabitants of Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Illyria to some extent, were quite similar to those of Greece. But we are speaking for the period between VIII-IV B.C...
Originally posted by Epirot View PostBoth Daniel Philippidis and Grigorios Konstantas are proved to be ignorant since it is widely known that Demosthenes was not the only person to call Macedonians as barbarians. Even the famous Thrasymachus labeled unceasingly Macedonian king as 'barbarian':
Shall we become slaves to Archelaus, Greeks as we are, to a barbarian?”
Ἀρχελάῳ δουλεύσομεν , Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρῳ
Originally posted by Epirot View PostIn general, I can say that all your cited accounts from XIX century, have no weight not only for being out-dated, but because they were written from some romantic writers who knew nothing about history.
Originally posted by Epirot View PostIf you want to maintain some credibility, go find some reliable source if inhabitants of Greece knew anything about Alexander the Great prior 1830. Greeks discovered Alexander for the first time after they launched campaigns like "I Makedonia einai elliniki" or something like that."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Voltron View PostRisto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region.
Notwithstanding this, Kozhani is close to the southern end of Macedonia. I would expect some other languages to have influence the further south one goes.
There are Greeks that disagree with all statements unless it is said they are descended from mythical Greek gods who still watch over them no matter how Christian they purport to be.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Epirot View PostThe only one who's making senseless comments is you. Once dumb, always dumb! All of your cited accounts from XIX-th century does not change the prevalent view that modern 'Greeks' had no tradition about Alexander before the emergence of Megali Idea. If some romantic writers did mention Alexander the Great and his Macedonians, this cannot be considered either as tradition or knowledge about Macedonians:
Originally posted by Epirot View PostD. Pyrrhos neither considered Macedonians as Greeks nor Alexander as Greek. He just stated that Asiatics were defeated by Macedonian Alexander the Great. I am sorry!!!
"As far as the sciences,the arts and Philosophy were thriving in Hellas,the bright Hellenes shined with their virtues among all other nations.AS FAR AS THERE WERE LIVING THOSE GREAT MINDS OF THE WORLD,ALEXANDER THE GREAT,Pyrrhus,Leonidas,Themistocles,Pericles,
Miltiades,Aristotle,divine Socrates,THE HELLENES WERE TRIUMPHANT AGAINST ALL OTHER NATIONS OF THE WORLD.But since the sciences and the Muses are absent from Hellas,all lights of philosophy and virtue have been totally extinguished,all good things in Greece have been immediately vanished.Unhappy Hellas!What you were once,what you are now and how you’ll end up!"
"Όλοι οι Έλληνες,μάλιστα οι Μακεδόνες και οι Θεσσαλοί είναι φιλόξενοι"
(All Hellenes,especially the Macedonians and the Thessalians are hospitable).
"Οι από Ελλήνων βασιλεύσαντες ενδόξως...ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ,ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΣ ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΟΣ,ΕΥΕΡΓΕΤΗΣ,ΦΙΛΟΠΑΤΩΡ,ΕΠΙΦΑΝΗΣ...."
(Those of the Hellenes that gloriously reigned...ALEXANDER,PTOLEMY,PHILADELPHOS,EUERGETES ,PHILOPATOR,EPIPHANES....all Macedonians)
Originally posted by Epirot View PostYou Serres cretin! Your evident mental disability does not allow to understand the essence of posts. Of course, the Klephtes have nothing to do in regard with thread...I quoted the famous leader of them, Nikotsaras to point out his totally ignorance on Achilles. This was the gigantic gap between population of Greece and ardent Phil-hellenes who imagined them as descendants of ancient Hellenes. As for the nationality of Klephtes, we can discuss in another thread.
Originally posted by Epirot View PostSo what?? You even to dare to ask so...The fact that Greeks had no clue about ancient Greeks speaks volume on drastic changes occurred in Greece. This does not leave much room for claiming unbroken lineal continuation from antiquity till modern times, does it?
Originally posted by Epirot View PostIs that all you can say? Oh sorry, I forget that you are professional to pick up selectively some vague quotes and to omit from the rest of book, which clearly refute your fantasy. You would not be pleased if we examine a little further on your quoted books...
Originally posted by Epirot View Post3. Karamanlis himself made extensive public funds available for further excavation...therefore he took a continuing personal interest on that project. I'd not be surprised if Karamanlis himself come here to break our balls by claiming Alexander as 'the representative of all Greeks'
Originally posted by Epirot View PostGive it a break! You think that only Greeks transmitted legends of Alexander to all people. By whom central Asiatic leaders were taught about their legends with Alexander? By Greeks hahhahaahah Your lame arguments does not hold any water
Originally posted by Epirot View PostCalm down you big fat!
Originally posted by Epirot View PostI did not accuse Greek homosexuals...I've just make known something that is evident.
It has been posted a long time ago in MacedonianTruth a photo of a Greek gay covered with a Greek flag to promote the Hellenism of MacedoniaBy the way, what are the possibilities of introducing gay societies in your hometown, Serres since the wave of homosexualism is covering all Greece?!
"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Voltron Said
Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region
In the nineteenth century the Kozani region was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost all Hellenized Vlachs.
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[QUOTE=Agamoi Thytai;107654]Originally posted by makedonche View PostMakedonche,I really don't have any clue what is the ironic part you are talking about.
Yes you are correct, for once we agree completely - you don't have a clue!On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"
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Originally posted by Agamoi Thytaiit clearly shows Peter Green is definitely not a pro-Greek person,thus his testimony that Alexander has survived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece becomes more valuable and reliableIn the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Today you do have a choice Mango. It is not up to the government to teach you your native language. At the end of the day, it us up to your parents, community, and yourself.Last edited by El Bre; 08-14-2011, 10:16 PM.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostYou've made that remark a number of times in your recent posts. Why does he need to be pro-Greek or pro-Macedonian or pro-Albanian? How about being pro-logic and pro-common sense? I don't agree with every single one of his opinions, but there is no doubt that Peter Green is one of the best historians where it concerns Alexander. Anybody that claims otherwise is merely being 'pro-Greek' themselves."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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