Concerning the non-Greek origin and history of Asia Minor

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  • Risto the Great
    If you define Greeks as a multi-ethnic grouping of peoples with influences from many places and cultures, you could include this type of dancing within their "identity". Otherwise, it can be better described as non-Greek.

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  • George S.
    the dancings the same lots of shaking & hands raised high.It'sdefinitely turkish music & not greek.

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  • George S.
    deep down i had a feeling they weren't who they might be..

    Onur I was talking to one pontian & they said virtually all the place names are greek,Gallipoli.Big city ,Instanbul??etcThey reckon it's all greek,there are not much turkish place names in turkey they are all greek virtually? .
    Last edited by George S.; 09-17-2012, 02:03 PM. Reason: ed

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  • Onur
    Carlin, we had a thread about Pontians here before;

    these people have endured trials and tribulation from greece assimilations over time. Onur any info on this group, i hear the population is very minimal in greece? interesting how they came around. My mothers 1st father who was killed by the greeks was Pondi. this intrigues me the diversity in greece showing they are not

    The entire Pontic folklore, dances, music, instruments, clothing and everything else has Turkish etymology but none of Greek. The Turkish origin of them is irrefutable.

    About the video of yours above, i cant even call them as similar because they are same.

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  • Carlin
    Turko-Asian origin of Pontian folklore, culture, and traditional costumes

    Note the picture of four little Pontian girls - caption reads:
    "Young girls in traditional Pontian costumes whose origin is lost in the depths of Asia
    and not in ... Ancient Greece."

    Here is an interesting video illustrating the point. First dance is 'Greek' (NOTE THE BLUE CAPTION "GR"), followed by a 'Turkish' dance (RED CAPTION "TU"), and so on... It alternates between GR and TU dances.

    Βρείτε τους απόγονους - YouTube

    Please conclude for yourself if there are any differences between the two: music/melody, costumes, etc.
    Last edited by Carlin; 09-15-2012, 07:33 PM.

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  • George S.
    good one carlin,you have cleared up a few things about greeks.

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  • VMRO
    Great read, it really does shatter the Greek claims.

    Imagine all those hardcore Greeks who say they are of Pontian origins, not being Greek at all.

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  • Carlin
    Part II - relevant stuff below...

    Byzantinization, not Hellenization of 'foreigners'

    Towards the end of the eighth century, the populations were reshuffled so much and so violently, that it is difficult to say which ethnic groups lived in what areas and in what numbers. Often stated that eliminating even painful, the main non-Greek language elements as the Syrians, the Egyptians and the Illyrians, the Byzantine Empire became more homogeneous. It is also argued that those who were not Greeks, Hellenized and gradually absorbed mainly through the Church and the Army, and how something like this happened mainly in the indigenous populations of Asia Minor and the Slavs in the Peloponnese and in other parts of Greece. (Read the " free inquiry ": What happened to so many Slavs? )

    First of all, the very designation "Greek", which we use so freely, is completely absent from contemporary sources. Someone who lived south of Thessaly, could call themselves "Greek", even though they were Slavs, for example. This also applies to residents of other regions, whose names are derived from the name of the province, for example Paphlagonians or Thrakesion (from Thrakision Subject in Western Asia Minor). There was no concept of "Greekness".

    This process was Byzantinization. Bithynia, for example, as mentioned above, Slavs settled in large numbers at the end of the seventh and towards the middle of the 8th century, some two hundred years later, the Byzantine Armada, assembled in 949 in an attempt to conquer Crete, included Slavs established in Opsikion (administrative name of Bithynia), who had their own leaders. [Constantine Porphyrogenitus, "Exhibition of Ceremonies (De cerimoniis), CSHB, I, 666, 669].

    During the next century, Anna Comnena mentions a town in Bithynia, " Sagoudaous , "apparently from the tribe of Sagoudaton, testified in Macedonia in the 7th century. (Anna Comnena: "Alex, xv. 2.4, ed B. Leib, iii, Paris, 1945, 192).

    Shortly thereafter, the Slav element in Bithynia reinforced by Emperor John Komnino, who set up groups of Serb prisoners near in Nicomedia. (Nikitas Choniates "History", ed J.-L. van Dieten, Berlin, 1975, 16). Serbian villages out even in these places in the 13th century.

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  • Concerning the non-Greek origin and history of Asia Minor

    I have edited/removed some sentences and paragraphs.

    The formal education of the current Greek state presents a warped image of Asia Minor, in which the region everything was supposedly Greek and those who were/are "barbarians" invaded it, and were sooner or later 'inoculated with the Greek culture' and Hellenized.

    So, in the current residents of Greece of Asiatic origin (Pontians) has created the illusion that they are genuine descendants of the ancient Greeks. Present inhabitants of Greece from Asia Minor, however, originate from a medley of Asian tribes who lived in region over the centuries. The connecting links which unite them with the other inhabitants of Greece (eg. Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs), is the common Orthodox Christian faith and the use of Romaika language (Modern Greek), which were imposed during the Byzantine period several times by force. The refugees from Asia Minor to Greece and particularly to Macedonia, have no racial connection to the ancient Greek colonists (eg. ancient Greek colonists created Marseille, but today there are no claims that Marseille is Greek), but are a population medley of Georgians, Armenians, Seljuk, especially Laz, mixed with innumerable other natives.

    Multinational Asia Minor in antiquity

    The mixing of peoples and cultures, which has been in Asia Minor, the biggest crossroads of peoples on Earth, not the likes you have seen anywhere in the world. Nobody can say (with certainty) what peoples, what nations inhabited today's Asia Minor. Ancient peoples who lived in the area: Hittites, Phrygians, Mysians, Cimmerians, Bithynians, Cappadocians, Lydians, Pisidians, Lycaonians, Isaurians, Leleges, Carians, Lycians, Ionians, Aeolians, Galatians (divided into three tribes: Tectosages, Tolistobogii, Trocmi) etc.. dividing Ancient Greeks in Asia Minor (not called so at the time, this name appeared after the fourth to fifth century AD) in 15 countries, bringing mostly the names of the people who lived in them, which was to the north: Pontus, Paphlagonia, Bithynia, west: Mysia, Lydia, Caria to the south: Lycia, Pisidia, Pamphilia, Cilicia and middle: Phrygian Isauria, Lycaonia, Galatia and Cappadocia. Galatia, for example, was a country already in the third century BC, which was inhabited by Celtic tribes. Later became a Roman province. The residents were addressed in the "letter to the Galatians" of the Apostle Paul.

    Multinational Asia Minor
    and the Byzantine and Ottoman period

    Something similar happened during the later Byzantine period, when the territories of Asia Minor were organized into: East, Armeniakon Thrakesion, Opsikion, Optimatou, Boukellarion, Paphlagonia, Chaldia, Koloneia, Sebasteia, Lykandou, Seleukeia, Kibyrrhaiotai, Cyprus, Samos (included and Smyrna) and Aegean (islands). Backed by professional military forces, composed of Armenians, Syrians, etc. locals. At plateau, the origin of the inhabitants were Armenian, Syrian or mixed. Following the 7th century. A.D. appeared Arabs, who came up and Istanbul, while, as we will examine in more detail below, were too extensive Slavic settlements to meet population gaps due to wars and plagues. During the 11th century invaded Mongolia, which prevailed under the leadership of Selcuk. After the decline of the rule of Selcuk, Ottoman Turks appeared (osmanli), who in 1453 conquered Constantinople. Later, Anatolia was divided into vilayets of the Ottoman Empire.

    Here I must make a note: The name Turks is derived from Turany, who lived in Central Asia. Kemal Ataturk was the one that imposed by law, the common name for all Turkish residents of the country in which they live hundreds of different tribes. To say that today's Turkey, they are "pure Turkish" is a phenomenon that is related to our claim that we are "pure Greeks". The more bastard you are, the more insistently seeks blood purity. In this article, the term "Turkish" is used conventionally with more geographical, ethnological despite complexion. then invaded Asia Minor, found established various peoples of Turkish origin, such as Turkmen, who had come from Central Asia. Different ethnos are Laz... Other Asia Minor, but non-Turkish races are Circassians or Circassians, the Iberians (Georgians), Kurds, Roma, Armenians, Jews and others.

    The Multinational Seacoast

    For many indigenous peoples provide information Xenophon, Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus and others.

    Persian kingdom of Pontus

    The Kingdom of Pontus (northern coastal part of the Asia Minor peninsula), which the Greeks 'claim', is actually the kingdom of the Persian king Mithridates, which was abolished by the Romans. Had nothing to do with Greeks. The population was in the majority of non-Greek origin. Composed of different tribes, speaking 22 languages. The Romans succeeded in breaking it after long struggles and turned it into a province of the Roman Empire. Gradually, all parts of Pontus were annexed to the Roman Empire. The Christianization of the people started in the 3rd century.

    The Byzantine Seacoast

    The period of Roman occupation and the prevalence of Christianity marked the loss of the name "Greek (Hellene)" -which, moreover, in some cases, had acquired religious significance stating the Pagan-and while prevalence of the name "Roman" survives to this day. During the Byzantine period principal people of the region were the Laz, who belong to the same race of Iberian Caucasus. The Laz were Christianized by Justinian (6th century)., like the tribes of Colchians, and Tzanata. Population decimation and Significant losses due to epidemics, such as p, x, the great plague of 541/542. Syklonisan pestilence empire and other times, as in 558, the 560/1, the 585, the 602, 746-747 etc.. According to calculations, the loss rate of the famine reaches 40% in Asia Minor.

    Important ethnographic changes
    during the Byzantine period

    The largest ethnographic changes suffered Byzantium was after the sixth century, when it became a massive installation of the Balkan Slavs. At the same time, the Arabs made ​​frequent attacks in Asia Minor and not a couple of times, but almost every year for about two hundred years. Several raids reached as the Black Sea, the Aegean, and even Konstantinopol. Whenever ​​invasion was made, killing, looting and taking captives into slavery followed, while the Byzantines/Romans were burning their crops, to deprive the enemy of supplies. Many cities of Asia Minor were entirely destroyed, depopulated, and abandoned. The same applies to the Aegean. Many islands had already been ravaged/depopulated by the middle of the seventh century, when Arab fleet began to dominate the eastern Mediterranean (the conquest of Crete (823-828)).

    It is not difficult to imagine the consequences of this long process: a large part of Asia Minor had been destroyed and had reduced the population irreparably. He had created a huge demographic gap. Reduced populations indicates the settlement policy of the emperors. Various populations and tribes are used on a large scale for the implementation of this policy (Armenians, Syrians, Slavs, Bulgarians, etc). Farmers and soldiers were urgently needed . The Constans II (7th century). Slavs moved to Asia Minor in LARGE numbers. Justinian II moved a big number of Slavs to Bithynia. First was unlucky, because most of them deserted to the enemy, causing the emperor to impose harsh reprisals to their families. (Epiphany: "Diary", ed C. de Boor, Leipzig, 1883, pp. 365). However, we learn that 208,000 Slavs migrated to Bithynia at will during the decade of 760. (Nikephoros Patriarch: "Short History", ed C. de Boor, Leipzig, 1880, pp. 68-9). In the 8th century Syrians settled in Thrace.

    Among the new settlers, the most important were the Armenians; flow into the empire lasted many centuries. Many settled in Cappadocia and in other parts of eastern Asia Minor, many in Thrace, others in the region of Pergamon. In 578, 10,000 Armenians moved to Cyprus for colonization, given that the island was almost deserted at this time. ("History of the Greek nation," ed "Publishing Athens", Vol. H, pp. 183-4).

    Multilingualism in Asia Minor

    There were two official languages spoken in the eastern and western Roman empire: Greek and Latin. The boundaries of each spread is not always clear. In general, however, with the exception of the Balkans, where there was a lot of language mixing, the western part of the empire used exclusively Latin and eastern exclusively Greek, MEANING that these were the languages of administration and educated people. Almost all educated in the West spoke Latin, but a large part of ordinary people do not even speak one or the other language. Constantinople, founded as Latin center in the East, like all capitals, was a melting pot of disparate elements. Among its inhabitants were Illyrians, Italians, Africans, whose native language was Latin, eg even of the Emperor Justinian. Any provincials had settled there and shuttled to commercial or government affairs. Among the many slaves were barbarians. Included many foreign and military units, from the 6th century consisted of either Germans or Huns and others from some of the most hardened provinces, as were the Isaurians, the Illyrians and Thracians. Syrians, Mesopotamians and Egyptians monks, who spoke little or no Greek, flocked to the capital impressing the locals with strange feats of asceticism. The ubiquitous Jews earn their living as craftsmen or merchants.

    The common Alexandrian, that a simplified form of ancient Greek language at all levels (phonetics / pronunciation, grammar, syntax, vocabulary), was built by the scholars of Alexandria for the bureaucratic needs of non-Greek sages and scholars. Was then introduced lowercase letters and multitone to pronounce and emphasize each word correctly and facilitate to non-Greeks. Christians found ready this International language, 'English' of the time, and made ​​it their own. Note, that the common Alexandrian not spoken by mainly Greek but non Greek-speaking peoples (Jews, Syrians, Persians, etc.). Evolution of the language adopted and used in territory of Greece (that is by Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs etc.). The current Greek, Romeiko, to be precise, is a variation of the Alexandrian (the language of the Gospels, the Fathers of the Church, the hymnology) and not of the primarily Greek of ancient Greeks.