Ottoman & Turkish Atrocities

[Onur]

Onur, you don't really believe that what happened to the Armenians and in Batak is a myth, do you? What exactly are you denying in both of these cases?

Yes i do SOM, and not only me, Bulgaria`s former president and several Bulgarian and German historians says that Batak is just a myth. Few years ago, Bulgarian historians Krusty Manchev, Martina Baleva and German prof. in Berlin university, Ulf Brunnbauer told this and because of the death threats they received, they cant even go to Bulgaria anymore.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4877&highlight=batak

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=79747

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=92334

Also, there are pictures of 288.000 massacred Turks in Bulgaria in 1877-1878 while we have none for the so-called Batak incident in 1876. Only evidence for the Batak is the report of a British missioner and his article in British newspaper and a pile of human bones in Batak church. But the pictures of 288.000 slaughtered civilian Turks has been shown in an exhibition recently;

Exhibit Shows Russian 'Atrocities' in Turkish War 1877-8
Photographs of atrocities allegedly committed by the Russian army during the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-8, that resulted in Bulgaria's liberation from the Ottoman Empire, are on exhibit in Berlin.

The show stages Ottoman documentary photographs of civilians who have been killed or maimed at the hands of the Russian army, report the Frankfurter Allgeimene Zeitung and Deutsche Welle Bulgaria.

The photographs have been recently uncovered by German Ottomanologist Elke Hartmann. The exhibit at the Berlin Academy of Sciences is organized by Bulgarian art historian Martina Baleva, who is working in Germany.

The photographs now on show in Berlin were commissioned by Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II and were sent out to Western governments and media in a bid to make them sensitive to the Ottoman position after the Empire lost the war.

Abdul Hamid II himself was an avid collector of photographs about life in the empire and was keen to use the medium for state propaganda.

The photographs on show in Berlin depict a massacre in the district of Eski Zaara (now Stara Zagora), which it is claimed affected some 20,000 Muslim civilians.

Researcher Elke Hartmann discovered the pictures in the archive of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where they were received from Turkey back in the day.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=125438

How would i know the pile of bones in Batak church belongs to the Bulgarians? I wouldn't be surprised if these bones belongs to the 288.000 massacred Turks in same year. If not, then they should show me the bones of 288.000 Turks if they can exhibit the bones of the Bulgarians in Batak.



As for the Armenian issue; They geared up French and Russian soldier uniforms and then they tried to convert Armenian minority in to a majority in eastern Anatolia by mass murdering the Turkish civilians. As a result of that, they have been forcibly relocated inside Ottoman empire by expelling them to current Armenia and Syria. Both of these places were part of Ottoman empire in 1915. So, we didn't even expel them out but we relocated them inside the state. Also, think about why we expelled Armenians but didn't even touch even one of 1.2 million so-called Greeks of Anatolia in 1915??? What was the difference between them and the Armenians if we would have committed genocide???

What would you do if Albanians in Macedonia would gear up Albanian soldier uniforms, take up arms, massacre Macedonians in western Macedonia??? I bet you would think about doing for worse things to them than what we did to Armenians in 1915.



60 years ago, Germans killed more than million French in just a week and no one talks about that anymore. Just as the Germans and French did, Turkish state also didn't even teach what has happened in those day to the Turkish people. But the difference is Germans and French applied this policy together and they wanted to open a new chapter in their history by leaving the bitter past in the past. On the other hand, Turkish state did this alone. That was a grave mistake while other Balkan states was doing the exact opposite. An ordinary Turkish people have no idea why nearly half of Turkish people have Balkanic roots and how their ancestors ended up in Anatolia but Bulgarians, Serbians, Greeks, Armenians did the exact opposite, did whatever they can do to keep animosity alive.

All in all, i am actually in favor of the investigation of all these issues. Next year, in 2012, it will be the 100th year of the death and exodus of Turks in Balkan wars. This includes my grandparents too. So, i hope Bulgarians declares Batak as genocide, Greeks does the same and i even hope EU recognizes all these. This would eventually create awareness among Turkish society and then people would remember the death of 5 million civilian Turks, exodus of 3 million more between 1877 and 1912. Then the death of 515.000 Turks when Greece invaded Anatolia in 1919.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5042

So i am in favor of the investigation of Batak, Armenian issue but also in favor of the investigation of Morean, Crete muslim genocides, exodus of 3 million Turks from Balkans, expulsion of 350.000 Turks from Bulgaria in 1989, expulsion of 150.000 Turks from Macedonia in 1960s.

Maybe we wont gain anything at all but at least the things would be even between Turkey and Balkan states and Armenia if thats what they want. We got nothing to loose either because animosity of Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Armenia literally means nothing to us.

[Bratot]

Onur,

the Armanian massacre did happen and replacement of thesis isn't really convincing in such debates. Maybe it is exaggerated in numbers but lets keep the common sense, because obviously those group photos of hundreds dead bodies isn't any invention or myth.

But I agree about the Batak myth.

[Voltron]

Massacre or Genocide Bratot ? This isnt an issue of semantics either.

[Onur]

Onur,

the Armanian massacre did happen and replacement of thesis isn't really convincing in such debates. Maybe it is exaggerated in numbers but lets keep the common sense, because obviously those group photos of hundreds dead bodies isn't any invention or myth.

I am not saying that Armenians didn't die. They attacked us together with Russians, French army and only the Turkish&Kurdish civilians responded to them. Did you know that they killed about ~150.000 civilians in eastern Anatolia while whole Turkish army was in the battle in Gallipoli against British in 1915???

So like i said, i am in favor of the investigation of these. But Armenians never wants that. They want this wound remain open forever and never allow anyone to cure it, just like Bulgarians and Greeks does. They think that their people would be better Armenians and better Bulgarians if they keep scratching these wounds and create even more myths about these events.

But i changed my own opinion about all these things. I was thinking about we did the right thing and Armenians are doing the wrong by keeping the animosity alive but just because of Armenian genocide claims, we excavated 10s of mass graves in the last 10 years, which includes the bones of mass murdered 100s of Turks in the city of Van and Erzurum. These cities has been invaded by Armenian soldiers of Russia in 1915 and they massacred ~20.000 Turkish civilians in just 3 days. We have the original telegraph message of Armenian commander sent to the Moscow, who says "The only Turks remained alive in Van and Erzurum are just cats and dogs"


Turkish state and Turkish people are absolutely ready for face off with them and we invited Armenians to the international court of justice several times but they refuse to go there. We will soon ask for the crimes they did against Azeri Turks and the genocide in Karabakh in 1991;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5466

Same for Bulgarian Batak issue. Are they ready to face off with the pictures of 288.000 slaughtered Turkish civilians in Bulgaria? and the 500.000 more who has been forcibly expelled out by them? Would they allow us to do carbon dating test to the pile of bones in Batak church? We cant know that if these bones belongs to the Turks or Bulgarians but at least we could find the exact time and cause of death.

[George S.]

I used to work with an armenian.He said long time ago when They" the turks massacred 1 million armenians" as a resilt everyone left fled to jordan egypt etc.He said the armenians will never forget the massacre & there is so much hate it's unbeleivable.The armenians in australia used to regularly attack consul generals,diplomats.They don't seem to have foreclosure where they simply forgive & forget.The parents seem to tell their children to hate the turks so the animosity keeps going.They say that attaturk ordered the turks deliberately kill 1million armenians & i don't think they can get it out of their system by coming to terms,the turk of yesterday is different today.

[Onur]

The armenians in australia used to regularly attack consul generals,diplomats.

Armenians formed a terrorist organization called ASALA in 1970s and they assassinated 46 Turkish diplomats and injured 299 more throughout the world, including 8 French as a result of their bombing in Orly airport, Paris, France;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_by_the_Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia

[fatso]

You have already proven yourself.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x158824

We had a couple of Kurds working for us a few years back. They would talk about the atrocities Turkish soldiers committed to women and children. Most never revealed to the outside world.

[Bratot]

Massacre or Genocide Bratot ? This isnt an issue of semantics either.

I think massacre is the accurate.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/massacre

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

I am not saying that Armenians didn't die. They attacked us together with Russians, French army and only the Turkish&Kurdish civilians responded to them. Did you know that they killed about ~150.000 civilians in eastern Anatolia while whole Turkish army was in the battle in Gallipoli against British in 1915???
So like i said, i am in favor of the investigation of these. But Armenians never wants that. They want this wound remain open forever and never allow anyone to cure it, just like Bulgarians and Greeks does. They think that their people would be better Armenians and better Bulgarians if they keep scratching these wounds and create even more myths about these events.

But i changed my own opinion about all these things. I was thinking about we did the right thing and Armenians are doing the wrong by keeping the animosity alive but just because of Armenian genocide claims, we excavated 10s of mass graves in the last 10 years, which includes the bones of mass murdered 100s of Turks in the city of Van and Erzurum. These cities has been invaded by Armenian soldiers of Russia in 1915 and they massacred ~20.000 Turkish civilians in just 3 days. We have the original telegraph message of Armenian commander sent to the Moscow, who says "The only Turks remained alive in Van and Erzurum are just cats and dogs"


Turkish state and Turkish people are absolutely ready for face off with them and we invited Armenians to the international court of justice several times but they refuse to go there. We will soon ask for the crimes they did against Azeri Turks and the genocide in Karabakh in 1991;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5466

Same for Bulgarian Batak issue. Are they ready to face off with the pictures of 288.000 slaughtered Turkish civilians in Bulgaria? and the 500.000 more who has been forcibly expelled out by them? Would they allow us to do carbon dating test to the pile of bones in Batak church? We cant know that if these bones belongs to the Turks or Bulgarians but at least we could find the exact time and cause of death.

I didn't said the Armenians haven't provoked their destiny because the turkish reaction was obvious.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I tend to agree with Bratot, in that massacres most certainly happened and that it is not exactly fair to refer to them as 'myths'. The question I would ask is, when does a massacre develop into genocide? If it is directed only at a specific ethnic or religious group? If it is supported by the state? Just trying to play devil's advocate here, but the atrocities carried out by Armenians on Turkish civilians during the same period with the aim to cleanse them out of certain areas could also be classified as genocide, couldn't it?

[Vangelovski]

Article 2 of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[Bratot]

I hate to cite wikipedia sources but these information are generally available on other sources as well, however, you can read about the Denial of the Armenian Genocide as follows:
The Turkish and some other sources claim that the "intent to destroy," clause in the "Genocide Convention" has not been met, which means even if the "whole or in part" is met without intent it is not genocide.[15] For example, the British Government made its position clear on this point in a statement to the House of Lords in 2007:
... My Lords, I start with the most significant part of the right reverend Prelate’s question. For this Government, recognition of the so-called Armenian genocide is not a condition of Turkey’s membership of the EU. I wish to be straightforward and clear about that. Neither this Government nor previous British Governments have judged that the evidence is sufficiently unequivocal to persuade us that these events should be characterised as genocide under the 1948 UN convention on genocide.
—Lord Triesman Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs for Parliamentary Affairs.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide

Here is some good reading:

Extreme mass homicide: From military massacre
to genocidehttp://www.humiliationstudies.org/do...ssHomicide.pdf

When does a massacre become a genocide?

“Genocide” is increasingly being used as a generic label for all the world’s most serious mass crimes. “As a result, the absence of the term ‘genocide’ can be interpreted by survivors as meaning they didn’t suffer as much as others”—ie those who have been deemed survivors of genocide—says John Ciorciari, a lawyer and assistant professor at University of Michigan’s School of Public Policy.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/asiaview/2010/09/indictment_cambodia

Kuper argued that it is important to retain the basic concept of genocidal murder, that it is not helpful to create entirely new definitions when there exists an internationally recognized definition and a Genocide Convention that might provide the basis for some effective action, ... he argued that basically all mass killing is genocide, but at the same time the word massacre can be added to convey a more limited range of mass killing. —Jennifer Balint and Israel Charny.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocidal_massacre

[Onur]

When Ottoman government deported Armenians, they only forced the ones in central and eastern Anatolia to migrate out but they didn't touch any Armenian in Istanbul and Thrace. It`s because they didn't involve in to the rebellion nor supported Russian invasion. In fact, while the Armenians in eastern Anatolia were mass murdering Turks at eastern side, the ones from Istanbul were fighting against British in Gallipoli, mostly serving as doctors at the battlefield as a member of Ottoman army.

Only this fact can make their genocide claim as false because when Germans committed genocide, there was millions of Jews in all parts of Germany and they didn't say something like "Lets leave the ones in Berlin but kill the ones in Hamburg". Also, there is an Armenian minority in Turkey living here without an interruption since 1915. They get educated in their own language, their own schools. Is there any Jewish minority in Germany today while there was millions of Jews in there b4 WW-2??? What would happen if there would be a Jewish minority in there today? I bet neo-nazis would burn them alive in the streets.


I am telling you, Armenians have absolutely no way to win this "genocide case" in the international court of Justice in Hague. Thats why they refuse to go there and never accept our invitation to close this case. They prefer to give bribes to the parliamentarians of Canada, Uruguay, Mozambique etc. and convince them to declare the events of 1915 as genocide. They prefer to leave this wound open.


Yes, 100.000s of Armenians died but 100.000s of Turks died too and we have absolutely no regret because it was the Armenians who started all of these. They wanted to realize what Bulgarians did in 1877, create their own state under Russian yoke but they forgot that they were in Anatolia, not in Varna, Sofia. If anyone tries to do that again by mass murdering our people, we surely do it again.

I hope you`d never face such horrible events but trust me, if your Albanian minority does same as our Armenians did, you do expel them out since it`s the only way to stop it. Then we would see if you would tolerate the innocent Albanians as we tolerated the Armenians in Istanbul or you would expel all of them out from Macedonia.

[fatso]

Talat Pasha
In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...
"Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention

[fatso]

Cemal Pasha

To a German officer upon seeing the deportations in Mamure said...
"I am ashamed of my nation (Ich schame mich fur meine Nation)."

Minister of the Interior of Turkey publicly declared on March 15 that on the basis of computations undertaken by Ministry Experts...
“800,000 Armenian deportees were actually killed... by holding the guilty accountable the government is intent on cleansing the bloody past."

[fatso]

Mustafa "Ataturk" Kemal

Founder of the modern Turkish Republic in 1923 and revered throughout Turkey, in an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, talking about former Young Turks in his country...
“These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.