Greece 'Invisable' Italians

[Soldier of Macedon]

My personal opinion is that nationalists in a way have highjacked the dispute. You have one side claiming 100,000 Greeks in ROM and you have the other side showing Northern Greece as part of Republic of Macedonia. Extremism leads to absolutism and when absolutism reigns than logical discussions cannot happen.

The side claiming 100,000 Greeks in the Republic of Macedonia does so as an unjustified reaction to the real claim of thousands of Macedonians in Greece. Please do not compare these two as there are very few Greeks in the Macedonian Republic, and the 100,000 'Greeks' claimed are in fact Vlachs, and are recognized as such because that is their native ethnicity and language.

Macedonians make their claim based on the amount of people that shared their language and culture, and it is no secret that the Slavic-speakers of Macedonia were a majority, despite the sensational "feelings" experience at a later date.

Soldier,

If an Albanian came to you showing 40% of ROM as theirs or as part of Albania, would you want to talk with them? Or would you immediate posture become defensive or even angry?

I understand your point, but I will have to accept such suggestions in realistic terms. Macedonia doesn't claim that her minorities disappeared into thin air, as Greece does with its Macedonian minority.

[Risto the Great]

Why was it OK for the 'Greek-Macedonian' Committee of the early 1905 to refer to my people and language as Macedonians?
Why was it Ok for Pavlos Melas in 1904 to refer to my people and language as Macedonians?
Why do the Greeks now deny what they clearly recognized 100 years ago? My people and language have not changed, we are still the same Macedonians as you referred to us back then. Why, in the 21st century is it now a problem? Why wasn't it an 'attack' on Greek identity back then, but is now for these modern Karamanlides in your government?

Demos, it now time for REALISTS to hijack this dispute.
Please answer the above question.

[Demos]

The side claiming 100,000 Greeks in the Republic of Macedonia does so as an unjustified reaction to the real claim of thousands of Macedonians in Greece. Please do not compare these two as there are very few Greeks in the Macedonian Republic, and the 100,000 'Greeks' claimed are in fact Vlachs, and are recognized as such because that is their native ethnicity and language.

Macedonians make their claim based on the amount of people that shared their language and culture, and it is no secret that the Slavic-speakers of Macedonia were a majority, despite the sensational "feelings" experience at a later date.

I understand your point, but I will have to accept such suggestions in realistic terms. Macedonia doesn't claim that her minorities disappeared into thin air, as Greece does with its Macedonian minority.

Exactly my point. If both sides just cooled off a bit they wouldn't be at each other's throats all the time and we could finally come up with an exit strategy to this dead lock and finally move onto the important challenges of the region and building up trade and our economies. The Balkans did not benefit from Ottoman rule and we are many years behind in all areas.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Demos, the problem can be solved in a second.

Today, Greece needs to recognize the Macedonian state and people.

Leave the ancient history to the historians and people interested.

It is the sheer hatred being developed between our peoples because of this stupid dispute where one side refuses to recognize the other, that does not allow for any constructive ideas to be put forth between the two states. During various periods in history the people's of Macedonia and Greece have made things work and have done great things, such thoughts in the modern era are light years away because of a stupid problem which need not exist.

[Demos]

Demos, it now time for REALISTS to hijack this dispute.
Please answer the above question.

Risto,

Feel free to tell me what the realities are from your personal point of view to get out of this dead lock.

[Risto the Great]

Risto,

Feel free to tell me what the realities are from your personal point of view to get out of this dead lock.

The REALISTIC situation clearly indicates that the Macedonians were readily identifiable by Greeks 100 years ago. Now they are attempting to play games with the Macedonian identity.

I note you chose not to answer the question. Give it a go, immerse yourself in it .... by typing an answer you might realise the stupidity of modern Greece. And how the "deadlock" is merely an one-sided smokescreen.

[osiris]

here is the official line as taught to our grkoman relatives and yelled at us at many social gatherings.


from the 50s to 80s

"nema makedonia nie sme grtsi,"

then in the 90s the grkoman line was ,

"znaime oti sme makedontsi ami vie ot taa granitsa ko rasipate imete na makedonia.""

"ama nie sega sme greek macedonian oti so greek passport doido me."

for the social grkomans its over, their greek identity is dead, not buried yet still hanging around as corpse with the bad smell of poor chioces made in the past. the fanatics were few and many are now dead. in many ways the more hellenised young macedonisn today are much less fanatically anti macedonian, than that old brigade born before ww11.

[Risto the Great]

I was at a funeral the other day.
Yes that one Osiris.
It was in a Greek church and the local Macedonian predavnik gave a speech in Greek.
Of notable humour was the fact that an Albanian friend (muslim guy) asked what language the guy was speaking. He said he did not sound Greek at all. The fact that the predavnik came from a village 5km away from my Fathers' ... well that says it all.

[Sarafot]

Risto,all that tings,is that shit realy so in Australia,i read once a book abou Macos in Australia,they were allways fighting with Greeks,in the book among other,''two greeks and one macedonian,one of the greeks saied to Macedonian friend,Beloto more pak ke ni bide zaedničko,other greek slother him for that''

Are thouse things realy hapend?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Sarafot, things were worse a few years back, but it is not wild all of the time, however, if there so happens to be a crowd of Macedonians and crowd of Greeks at the same location for a function, football game, picnic, etc, this can and does often turn into something more than just stares and a few comments. Don't take this as the norm though, particularly when thinking of individuals, because there are many, many Macedonians and Greeks who are friends, neighbours, schoolmates, inter-related, etc. It's complicated.

[osiris]

risto how long do you think there will be greek spoken at grkoman functions once the over 60s are dead. gee that exhilirating to think, in my lifetime i may see the end of grkmantsvo in australia.

what of their children risto will we see as the ozzie born grkomani age will seek their roots before they die, i have seen it happen in my community. i met a 30s something young macedonian boy, both parents from egei, his maternal grandfather was one of a handfull of self deluded, grkoman fanatics, who at least tried to speak greek amongst their little group of 4 or 5. today his grandson is a hardcore macedonian.

[osiris]

sarafot, not only do the greeks fight the macedonians, in my lifetime i saw brothers and sisters fighting over the macedonian issue. i can honestly say that i may have been involved in a few of those battles.
here was my chant as a boy and later young man.

napred tsrveni
grtsite se zdreveni.

grtsite bea nashi braikya i sestri.

[Risto the Great]

risto how long do you think there will be greek spoken at grkoman functions once the over 60s are dead. gee that exhilirating to think, in my lifetime i may see the end of grkmantsvo in australia.

what of their children risto will we see as the ozzie born grkomani age will seek their roots before they die, i have seen it happen in my community. i met a 30s something young macedonian boy, both parents from egei, his maternal grandfather was one of a handfull of self deluded, grkoman fanatics, who at least tried to speak greek amongst their little group of 4 or 5. today his grandson is a hardcore macedonian.

Truthfully, I have never been to a Grkoman function.
I have known many of them and they are quite uncomfortable around me.
Many more will come around ... why would they want to call themselves Greek when they are laughed at by Greeks with (apparently) a better lineage?
Many more will come around, but I wonder what will come of it.

I have seen many converts over the last 10 years. I have not bothered to think why up until now. I will see some on New Years Eve ... it will make an interesting discussion.

[Sarafot]

sarafot, not only do the greeks fight the macedonians, in my lifetime i saw brothers and sisters fighting over the macedonian issue. i can honestly say that i may have been involved in a few of those battles.
here was my chant as a boy and later young man.

napred tsrveni
grtsite se zdreveni.

grtsite bea nashi braikya i sestri.

Interesting,it would be nice to see some?
Like in that song of Goce Nikolovski,
''Se sobrale se sobrale Makedoncite,
se stepali so Grcite,
ete vi go sega Grci plačkovci,
Sydney,Melburn,se e polno so Makedonci''

[osiris]

I have seen many converts over the last 10 years. I have not bothered to think why up until now. I will see some on New Years Eve . .. it will make an interesting discussion

i think its because there is a macedonian state now.