Greece steal Paeonia's name

[Soldier of Macedon]

The link provides the familiar arguments:

Yeah, you're right, the familiar garbage arguments concerning the 'Greekness' (or lack thereof) of non-Greeks.

Are you going to clarify what you said earlier or not? What did you mean by 'Greekness' of the Paeonians? I hope I don't need to ask again, you're starting to appear evasive.

-Greek inscriptions (a total of three)

You will find the same among the Romans and others.

-Greek names (about 10 king names)

You will find the same among the Romans and others. Furthermore, you will find examples with other peoples, such as the Irish, who not only have English names, but also have their own patriotic Irish songs in the English language. Could you imagine if the Macedonians made a patriotic Macedonian song in the Greek language?? Wow!!

Do you know much about Côte d'Ivoire? They're an African nation under the colonial sway of the French. An African nation - yet they are officially members of La Francophonie and the Latin Union. How many knuckleheads out there would consider the Ivorians ethnically French or historically Latin, simply because they speak the language or because the name of their country is in the language? I know that some knuckleheads have similar misconceptions about the Macedonians and Paeonians, and their plastic 'Greekness'.

-Participation in the Olympic Games

Really, the Paeonians also participated in the Olympics? Anything further you can add to that?

-Cult of the same Gods (Dionysus Paeonicus)

That doesn't mean a thing, and if you bother to take the time and research the so-called 'Greek' gods, you will find that few if any are actually Greek to begin with. Just like today, different nations adopt and adapt from each other.

[ennea]

Volk,

The "Hellenes" should more correctly be called Achaeans. This is a map that couldn't be displayed as picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece.svg

Both Homeric epics (Iliad) and classical dramas (e.g. Trojan Women by Euripides) do not depict Trojans as foreigners and generally do not have point of view or take sides. Yet, this is fiction and myths, loosely related to some possible historic reality.
You can read here interesting theories, arguments and counter-arguments on the “nationality” and language of the real Trojans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language

I wouldn’t be surprised if foreigners confuse Greek and Scandinavian Mythology, but for a Greek that would be unforgivable. I don’t remember where you are. Was that a Greek-American, Canadian, Australian?

[Bratot]

There were more Greeks fighting on the side of Persia against Alexander so I guess the Persians weren't foreigners either?

The Romans participated the Olympic games as well, Tiberius in 4 BC later Imperator of Rome and Roman Imperator Nero in 1 AC who changed the timing of the Olympic games.

Were they Greek tribe as well?

"Unlike the Modern Olympic Games, only free men who spoke Greek were allowed to participate in the Ancient Games."
- "Olympic World" by author Peter Murray

http://books.google.com/books?id=n-njY9-tWvYC&dq=only+free+men+who+spoke+Greek+Olympic&ei=o5FjSvj7EJqwyASK5K2OAg&hl=pl

Is this explaining a lot?

Why have Greeks "allowed" Romans to participate the Olympic games?

"From 228 BC or 229 BC onwards the Romans were allowed to take part in the games.[14]
The Games of 196 BC were used by Titus Quinctius Flamininus to proclaim the freedom of the Greek states from Macedonian rule.[15] "




Pathetically enough you claim some "Greekness" with your twisted interpretation.

[ennea]

Epirot,

I don’t understand any of your sources. They should supposedly contradict what I wrote in my earlier posts, but it seems they do the opposite.
I’ not a scholar of History or Archaeology, just a simple-minded Greek. For me an inscription in Greek is… a Greek inscription.
You are Albanian. So, what is Illyrian for you? What is the Illyrian substance? What is pre-Greek (against Greek)?
I can accept that an obscure tribe was Illyrian and non-Greek if (Greek, Roman or other) sources say so. And that maybe later “it showed signs of Hellenization”

This is an interesting map that appears everywhere and is enough to fuel many conversations. Despite the colours, I hope the geographical locations are accurate. It presents Paeonians separately and Daorsians as Illyrians. In Greek we call them Daorizi or Daoursii.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It is a false map and heavily baised in favour of the persistently stupid assertion that Macedonia was 'Greek'. Don't make a habit of posting them here.

[Bratot]

Since the Roman rule on Balkan ancient states we all manufactured and used coins with Latin inscriptions and thousands of monuments are written in Latin, but I wonder what differ the Romans or their "succesors" in your understanding the Italians to claim that we were not a Roman tribe.

Most of you wonder how Macedonians proved their "Greekness"?
Here is the answer:

"When Greece was conquered by Philip of Macedonia and occupied by his son Alexander the Great, Macedonians officially became real Hellenes."

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/macedonian.html

Unique ancient logic I guess, works only for the Greeks. At least we know what we have to do now

[ennea]

Soldier of Macedon,
I don’t consider it rubbish, but pure logic. This text makes successfully its’ case on the Greek elements of Paeonians. His view is certainly biased (but I don’t really know how much). He also gives some of the counter arguments:

“Until then (the discovery of the inscriptions), it was believed that it was a northern people, wild and almost savage. The royal names of the Paeonian were known, of course, but we knew nothing on the language and script of this people. The testimonies of Herodotus, Strabo, Pausanias, or even Thucydides, were not very flattering for this people”
I don’t have these passages and don’t know how extended they are.

Most of the questions come from the obscurity of these people. Any comparison with the Romans is certainly unfair and unfortunate. If sources and testimonies on Paeonians are 3 pages long, for Romans it’s 3 trillion pages.

Could you imagine if the Macedonians made a patriotic Macedonian song in the Greek language?? Wow!!

What? Like Makedonia Xakousti?

I believe Greeks (as any other people/nation) are interested or take credit in anything that is “half-Greek” or… plastic(?)-Greek. We are interested in the Indo-Greek rulers of Bactria, but we don’t know much about them (only names and coins). In modern times, if one wrote a book on Greek cinema, they would probably have a chapter for Greek directors of diaspora. Some of their movies (Mad Max, Dark City, Sideways, On the Waterfront, A Woman Under the Influence) don’t have any Greek element or interest (they are clearly American or Australian movies), others do (Z, America America, Head On). Ianis Xenakis can be equally included in books on Greek music, or French music; Romanians may also consider him their child.
I can only assume French people are doing something similar about their colonies.

Really, the Paeonians also participated in the Olympics? Anything further you can add to that?

They didn’t win a medal.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don’t consider it rubbish, but pure logic.......His view is certainly biased (but I don’t really know how much).

You don't know much and you consider certain bias as pure logic.....interesting. Do you engage in clownery for a profession too?

This text makes successfully its’ case on the Greek elements of Paeonians.

Good to see you relegate 'Greekness' to 'Greek elements'. I am not sure what you're referring to by 'success' though, if it was to demonstrate that a Paleo-Balkan people were involved with the Greek-speaking world in varying degrees, I will have to inform you that it's no secret.

Any comparison with the Romans is certainly unfair and unfortunate. If sources and testimonies on Paeonians are 3 pages long, for Romans it’s 3 trillion pages.

Are you really trying to suggest that the Paeonians were arguably 'Greeks'? And I thought I had heard it all before, lol.

What? Like Makedonia Xakousti?

No, unless it is native Macedonian-speakers that created the song. I was thinking something more like the song 'Give Ireland back to the Irish'. It was written by Paul McCartney, who claims Irish descent, and the song is in English - the message is against the English occupation of Ireland. Another such song, this one created by Irish rebels from Ireland, is called 'Come Out, Ye Black and Tans'. Look them up, and then tell me if it is circumstance or Irish 'confusion' that is responsible for some Irish people speaking in English. The parallel with Macedonians (Irish) and Greeks (English) cannot be escaped.

I believe Greeks (as any other people/nation) are interested or take credit in anything that is “half-Greek” or… plastic(?)-Greek.

I don't have an issue with reference to certain instances where ancient Hellenic influence in non-Hellenic people is evident. But you've basically implied that the Paeonians were Greeks, leaving only the matter of how 'Greek' they were to qualify their 'Greekness'. It is a severely ignorant assertion.

[ennea]

Bratot,

The Persians were a respected foreign powerful kingdom, but I’m not aware of anyone considering them Greeks (even for short-term political reasons). Many Greek cities in 5th Century aligned or submitted to them.

The book captions show some interesting political twists. Unfortunately the second one is cut on the best part. I would like to know what it says next

Since the Roman rule on Balkan ancient states we all manufactured and used coins with Latin inscriptions and thousands of monuments are written in Latin, but I wonder what differ the Romans or their "succesors" in your understanding the Italians to claim that we were not a Roman tribe.

Well, Paeonia and Macedonia weren't "conquered by Greeks" as far as I know.

Most of you wonder how Macedonians proved their "Greekness"?
Here is the answer:

"When Greece was conquered by Philip of Macedonia and occupied by his son Alexander the Great, Macedonians officially became real Hellenes."

Unique ancient logic I guess, works only for the Greeks. At least we know what we have to do now

Well, this isn't an ancient quote. You know, what was established at Corinth was called Πανελλήνια Συμμαχία (=Pan-Hellenic Alliance), not "Alliance of Hellenes and Macedonians".

[Soldier of Macedon]

It had nothing to do with an 'alliance' of Macedonians and Greeks, and Macedonia was not ever a part of that forced 'entity'. Are you really that ignorant, or are you being deliberately stupid for the purpose of promoting your distorted anti-Macedonian propaganda?

[Bratot]

Bratot,

The Persians were a respected foreign powerful kingdom, but I’m not aware of anyone considering them Greeks (even for short-term political reasons). Many Greek cities in 5th Century aligned or submitted to them.

Your Double Criteria are pretty obvious.

The book captions show some interesting political twists. Unfortunately the second one is cut on the best part. I would like to know what it says next

The book is available online, I gave you the title.

Well, Paeonia and Macedonia weren't "conquered by Greeks" as far as I know.

To say that KOINE was "Greek" letter is another manipulation. 90% of that alphabet was based on Phoenican letters and historically present for at least 1000 years before there was any knowledge of ancient Hellenes and their alphabet.

Try to read more about the Vinca culture for example.

According to many sources ancient Hellenes learned to write thanks to their neighbours in the 8-7 Century B.C.

According other authors that's the reason why there weren't any written records of previous winners in the Olympic games.

Well, this isn't an ancient quote. You know, what was established at Corinth was called Πανελλήνια Συμμαχία (=Pan-Hellenic Alliance), not "Alliance of Hellenes and Macedonians".

As I pointed out your Double Standards it is highly immature to even try to depict some political alliances as a proof for same origin.

There are so many other alliances between Macedonians and every other surrounding ancient tribes, with the Illyrians, Thracians, even with Persians and the Celts, with Hannibal and so on.

But what seems clear is that ancient Hellenes used the Romans to set them free from Macedonian rule, and for this there are even ancient quotes, unfortunatelly for you.

[Pelister]

These New Greeks are not the rightful and legitimate inheritors of ancient Greek culture. They have adopted a sham heritage, and live in a sham past. It follows then that on the basis of this sham heritage, any historical claim to territory in the region, is simply not valid.

[ennea]

Soldier of Macedon,
I may really be THAT ignorant cause I don't know what "Macedonia was not ever a part of that forced 'entity'" means. Can you elaborate or link to threads where this issue is discussed?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Soldier of Macedon,
I may really be THAT ignorant cause I don't know what "Macedonia was not ever a part of that forced 'entity'" means. Can you elaborate or link to threads where this issue is discussed?

That forced entity is known as the League of Corinth - that is the first time that the ancient Hellenic states (or at least most aside from Sparta and possibly a few others) were unified - and this came about by force of Macedonian arms. Macedonia was never a part of that puppet state, but, as it was created by Macedonians - only Macedonian kings led it. And if you are that ignorant, here is a link as requested:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1747&highlight=corinth%2C+league

[Voltron]

According to many sources ancient Hellenes learned to write thanks to their neighbours in the 8-7 Century B.C.

Really, so why cant we find anything aside from Greek in the region ? You would think there would be an abundance of examples in our region aside from Greek. But there isnt. Only in some rare cases of Thracian writing and even in this case Greek characters were used.

As far as your quotes, I can find just as many that state otherwise. As if that game hasnt been played out enough.

There should be an emoticon of a dead horse getting beaten in this forum.